**Official** New Zealand in England

[Leslie1]

I'm not defending the author of that article, but when I read it, it feels like an anger I thought only reserved for when the All Blacks lose.

One thing I do find with the Black Caps, on this forum anyways, that we generally do not chastise NZ cricketers as much as we should do, especially after a humiliating loss like that one.

He went overly, emotionally overboard with his sentiments, but a lot of truth in that article about how gutless it is to lose a test match as if you don't give a damn about fighting to stay in it. BLACK CAPS' strong suit has always been their ability to fight, and not surrender.

I felt gutted not because we lost, but because we lose this badly.

Bracewell (not that we care what he thinks) mentioned that the management tells the group how to learn from Pieterson's innings and Strauss innings prior to batting again in the second innings of the 3rd test. Yet we still went out there, fishing off stump at balls we should never get close to, and get out playing loose shots.

Sure the guy probably is washed up and lost his mind somewhere in his lifetime, but I tend to agree with the 'points' of that article, without the emotional baggage.

 

[Flem274*]

I'm not defending the author of that article, but when I read it, it feels like an anger I thought only reserved for when the All Blacks lose.

One thing I do find with the Black Caps, on this forum anyways, that we generally do not chastise NZ cricketers as much as we should do, especially after a humiliating loss like that one.

He went overly, emotionally overboard with his sentiments, but a lot of truth in that article about how gutless it is to lose a test match as if you don't give a damn about fighting to stay in it. BLACK CAPS' strong suit has always been their ability to fight, and not surrender.

I felt gutted not because we lost, but because we lose this badly.

Bracewell (not that we care what he thinks) mentioned that the management tells the group how to learn from Pieterson's innings and Strauss innings prior to batting again in the second innings of the 3rd test. Yet we still went out there, fishing off stump at balls we should never get close to, and get out playing loose shots.

Sure the guy probably is washed up and lost his mind somewhere in his lifetime, but I tend to agree with the 'points' of that article, without the emotional baggage.

Wow, I actualy agree with stuff Braces is saying.

This team isn't soft. How, Flynn and McCullum are already known for being tough. Taylor did manage his maiden ton when his place was being questioned and Oram managed 50* despite all his shortcomings. They are not soft, they lack the killer instinct. There is a difference.

We don't bitch at our cricketers as much on here because mindless ranting won't make many intelligent points (though they are amusing). Constructive criticism is whats needed, not the easy punch bag mentality you find from many talkback radio callers. Besides, this lot have an average age of about two years old, if people expect them to win every god damn test and not be made to look silly sometimes in their first three games by a team with bucketloads of experience then they have no sense of reality. The Black Caps did alot better than I expected.

 

[S.P. Fleming]

I think we are a gutsy team and Daniel Flynn has shown that in two of his innings but at times we can lack that mongrel nature of hating the opposition and not puting them out of the game (Old Trafford). I think this is a kiwi thing as shown by the All Blacks numerous times.

 

[S.P. Fleming]

I think if India win tonight then NZ loses its number 3 ranking, so go Pakistan!

 

[Richard]

Anyone read Atherton's comments:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/4/story.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10515339

Other than Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, there has not been a flimsier batting team to visit these shores in the past 20 years.

Fair call?

Don't really think so, WI last year were certainly weaker, as already mentioned, when Chanderpaul missed that one game.

As regards West Indies in 2000, though, they didn't come close. Their outputs were mostly poor, but that was because of some superlative seam-bowling on mostly helpful wickets. A side containing Campbell, Hinds (W), Lara, Chanderpaul (admittedly for just 2 Tests, but he was replaced by Sarwan anyway), Adams and Jacobs is certainly far from flimsy.

 

[Richard]

And I would argue that Zimbabwe in 2000 had two top-class batsmen, in Murray Goodwin and Andy Flower, alongside two useful players in Whittall and Johnson, and would stand comparison with this New Zealand unit at the present time (though I think NZ will get better). In the first match Zim got rolled, but the pitch was shocking and they'd barely got off the plane from Harare. They did much better in the next match, Goodwin scoring 148, and could even have won it were it not for rain.

Would almost certainly have won it but for rain. Well, no - but for the fact that lost time could not be made-up.

Not really sure where you get the "just got off the plane from Harare in the First Test" or "Lord's pitch was shocking" though. They'd played 3 (admittedly rain-interrupted) four-day games before the match (plus a couple of one-day matches) and performed mostly reasonably, aside from when Rahul Dravid almost single-handedly beat them at Canterbury. The wicket at Lord's was an excellent cricket wicket, it certainly wasn't poor for either bowlers or batsmen. It seamed throughout the match but there was virtually no uneven bounce. The Zimbabwean bowlers, Streak aside, were simply nowhere near good enough to exploit the conditions and Gough, Caddick and Giddins were, emphatically. England's seam-bowling all summer, with a short hiatus in the Second Zimbabwe and First West Indies Tests, was nothing short of magnificent and it's poor form to suggest the Lord's wicket offered batsmen no chance against any sort of bowling.

 

[Richard]

I don't rate Shah, he just seems like another who'll do well in Country Cricket (Middlesex seem to produce a lot of players with good batting averages) and not really cut it at the top level. I can remember a couple of times at least where he lost the plot mentally for England, when you throw that in with his mediocre fielding and somewhat unremarkable batting it doesn't add up to much.

I don't really get why people rate Shah so much personally.

Hahaha, Shah has played 2 Tests and performed extremely well in 1 of them. Not once has he lost the plot mentally, or in any other way. He's hardly had the chance to. Yes, there's a good few Middlesex batsmen with high averages, but neither Shah nor Joyce are obviously flat-track bullies, and Smith played most of his career with Kent anyway.

It's fairly brainless to suggest that Shah is another who'll do well at domestic FC level and not cut it in Tests. There's roughly zero currently to suggest that, and who knows, maybe there never will be.

 

[Scaly piscine]

I think we are a gutsy team and Daniel Flynn has shown that in two of his innings but at times we can lack that mongrel nature of hating the opposition and not puting them out of the game (Old Trafford). I think this is a kiwi thing as shown by the All Blacks numerous times.

NZ simply aren't good enough. They've a few players who fire occasionally and a few who're just there to make up the numbers that might just about get into a WI or Bangladesh side and that's it.

 

[Richard]

Virtually every New Zealand player in this squad, plus a good few reserves, would improve Bangladesh's team. Only a tiny handful of Bangladeshis are better than some of the NZ reserves.

 

[leepayne]

New Zealand are a good team. They are slowly becoming competitive in Tests again, like the West Indies. Daniel Vettori and Brendon McCullum (as a wicketkeeper) are world class players and they have some who are close to being world class, players like Jacob Oram and Ross Taylor. They definitely are a gutsy team.

 

[Manee]

New Zealand are a good team. They are slowly becoming competitive in Tests again, like the West Indies. Daniel Vettori and Brendon McCullum (as a wicketkeeper) are world class players and they have some who are close to being world class, players like Jacob Oram and Ross Taylor. They definitely are a gutsy team.

Indeed. I am really liking how Jacob Oram bowls, to be honest, and think that he could be a real handful on a crumbling wicket or one with uneven bounce. He really takes 'keeping it simple' to a new level. Having a batting all rounder who can bowl and not leak runs is a vital asset. It is a real shame that New Zealand lost Bond, with Martin working up the pace (despite a poor series in England) and O'Brien and Oram with very accurate change seamer options.

 

[Woodster]

Yes impressed with Oram's control and to keep his economy well down is as you say a vital asset, while in the right conditions can be also be a wicket-taking threat. It surprise me a little that England didn't get after him a little more, knowing how Vettori relies on his accuracy. Just try and disrupt his rhythm a little, but I suppose that may indicate how difficult it is to dominate him.

Only once has he gone over 3.5 runs per over when bowling 10 overs or more in an innings, and that was against the Aussies at the Gabba.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, and he was much better with the bat than he had been in the series down under

 

[Richard]

Yes impressed with Oram's control and to keep his economy well down is as you say a vital asset, while in the right conditions can be also be a wicket-taking threat. It surprise me a little that England didn't get after him a little more, knowing how Vettori relies on his accuracy. Just try and disrupt his rhythm a little, but I suppose that may indicate how difficult it is to dominate him.

Only once has he gone over 3.5 runs per over when bowling 10 overs or more in an innings, and that was against the Aussies at the Gabba.

Yeah I dug that little chestnut out a few months back, pretty remarkable performance really. In fact it's even more impressive; out of 24 Tests against Test-class teams where he's bowled more than 6 overs, he's conceded more than 3.28-an-over once (said 'Gabba game) and more than 2.88-an-over on just 2 other occasions.

Oram truly is an exceptionally difficult bowler to go after. He's helped, too, of course, by the fact that McCullum can stand up to the stumps if anyone tries going down the wicket to him, which is pretty much the only real chance batsmen have of scoring off him, short of backing away which is really unacceptable in Tests.

 

[Woodster]

His height and the length he bowls enables him to have the control. Would be interesting to see how McCullum would play him ?

Sometimes, even if as you say McCullum comes up to the wicket, it is a worthwhile exercise for the batsman as you are making them do something they don't particularly want to. The nicks will generally be tougher to take if there is any appreciable deflection, and the bouncer will be completely ruled out you would think.

Just think sometimes we need to try that little something just see what happens, think on our feet. This was one area that Duncan Fletcher felt we never really improved, more specifically in the one-day game.

 

[Richard]

Using your feet to the seamers if the wicketkeeper is standing-up is a big no-no. You just virtually never see it, even in the one-day game. It's so easy to miss one from a seamer, so much easier than to miss one from a spinner. And if you do, that's it, you're stumped.

I'm never really all that keen on seeing batsmen advance to seamers even with the wicketkeeper back in Tests (under normal circumstances that is - if you're chasing quick second-innings runs it's a different matter) anyway TBH, the game lasts five days, and if bowlers bowl in the right areas I'm happy enough to see batsmen play that accordingly. Even scoring at 3-an-over, never mind more than that, is not essential.

As to how would McCullum play Oram - I'd reckon he'd either be kept rare quiet, or would get out to Oram repeatedly.

 

[Leslie1]

I didn't really follow the IPL closely, but won't McCullum have played Oram in those 4 rounds? How did they go if they did face each other?

 

[pasag]

I didn't really follow the IPL closely, but won't McCullum have played Oram in those 4 rounds? How did they go if they did face each other?

http://content-www.cricinfo.com/ipl/engine/match/335993.html

 

[Raghav]

Tim Southee Injured .....

source:
blackcapsfan dot blog spot .com

 

[Somerset]

I didn't really follow the IPL closely, but won't McCullum have played Oram in those 4 rounds? How did they go if they did face each other?

He smashed him for a six and a couple of fours, then got out to him with a slog to cover if I can recall the match correctly.