*Official* Australia in decline thread

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Why not?. With the way Lee was getting it to reverse i struggle to see how WI would have been able to keep two bowlers mastering the art bowling at them. Even Chanderpaul in this form would have had to really dig deep and for Warne come on he proved time & again in his career (againts MUCH stronger batting line-up) on very similar flat pitches & better decks in the 4th innings that he could bowl teams out, Ponting missed that on the 5th day.

Shane Warne was never much good in the West Indies. Yes, Lara mastered him, but there were other wickets up for grabs and he never looked himself in the Caribbean.

 

[Richard]

I'm just dire. I don't even have an excuse for being up this late, really; I just am. I could blame it on Test in England, but the day's play finished a few hours ago and I'm still up. Similar reasons to Gelman I suppose - recent Tests in the West Indies.

I used to have these sorts of excuses, but I decided I was going to put a stop to this nighttime I'm-up-because-I've-stayed-up lark after the tour of NZ finished.

Impressed with my efforts so far.

 

[Lambu]

Why not?. With the way Lee was getting it to reverse i struggle to see how WI would have been able to keep two bowlers mastering the art bowling at them. Even Chanderpaul in this form would have had to really dig deep and for Warne come on he proved time & again in his career (againts MUCH stronger batting line-up) on very similar flat pitches & better decks in the 4th innings that he could bowl teams out, Ponting missed that on the 5th day.

My bad, i completely misinterpreted your earlier assertion.Sorry.

 

[Burgey]

I honestly can't see what Ponting's done wrong here. He was being honest about the bowling and that's something you want to see. Everyone knows it, everyone has talked about, for him to come out and defend it and be diplomatic about it would be silly and that's never been his style which has always been direct, blunt and tells things the way he sees them. Furthermore, in general he readily praises the opposition for their victories against the side and doesn't try and make excuses, which was part of the reason that the comeback after 05 was so strong, that they weren't in denial but they worked on themselves to become a better side.

Mate, Ponting could fart incense clouds of praise at the opposition after they play well, and for a lot of people here, there would still be grounds to bag him.

His comments on the pitch were echoed by Stuart Clark on Sydney radio yesterday, in the context of saying pitches like that one aren't great for cricket in the long term, if a lot of them are dished up. TBF to both of them, similar criticisms have been levelled at pitches here like Adelaide and Perth in recent times.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I disagree...it is possible to be the outright best Test team in the world without necessarily winning absoltely bevery series..

Like the West Indies in the 80's. They didn't win every series, they just didn't lose any.

 

[Son Of Coco]

http://blogs.abc.net.au/grandstand/2008/06/aussie-bowling.html?site=cricket

Listen to the interview - skip to 2:20 where he talks about the pitch and says something like

"I was just talking to Sarwan/Chanderpaul that it was a poor test wicket, them both getting runs, it was pretty good to bat on and you are not going to win test matches on those sort of pitches'

Pretty poor effort IMO. Common - Its a No. 1 team Vs. No. 8 with and he is complaing about the pitch.

The pitch was either ok or it wasn't. Who they were playing makes no difference.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I rate Ponting as a decent captain, as I've probably said before, but I haven't been very impressed with him lately. He's been too defensive at times when the likes of Steve Waugh would have been pushing on. And at times he's looked to be lacking faith in his charges.

 

[Jakester1288]

Ponting looks to alter bowling plans

Australia have 'come back to the pack'

Cricinfo staff

June 5, 2008



Brett Lee was flying high in Antigua, but there was not as much excitement from the rest of the attack © Getty Images




Ricky Ponting has admitted Australia's bowling attack has "come back to the pack a little bit in Test cricket" as they struggle to match the Warne-McGrath era. Australia were unable to force a result in the second Test in Antigua on Tuesday despite bowling for a full day, and Ponting is considering altering his plans for the final game in Barbados from June 12.

Stuart Clark could return to the new-ball duties he has craved, with the developing Mitchell Johnson dropped to first-change, while Beau Casson is in line to to replace Stuart MacGill. Ponting also expects to use more of the part-time spin of Michael Clarke and Andrew Symonds.

Brett Lee was outstanding in taking career-best figures of 8 for 110 in Antigua, but there was less impact from his support staff. "As far as our attack goes, we've probably just come back to the pack a little bit in Test cricket," Ponting said in the Sydney Morning Herald. "We've got Brett and Stuey [Clark], who are outstanding Test bowlers, and we've got Mitch, who is a work in progress, and we could very well have a young spinner the next game. I'm excited about that."

Ponting said it had been challenging operating without Glenn McGrath and Shane Warne. "Brett's done a very good job of standing up in Glenn's absence over the last 12 months and will continue to lead the attack well I'm sure," he said. "The next spinner is the interesting one for me. We'll see how that pans out."

Johnson, who is playing his first overseas Tests, has taken only five wickets in the opening two matches and is expected to be part of a bowling reshuffle. "I don't have any concern with Mitch," Ponting said. "We're probably going to look at Stuey opening the bowling more often than not now, for a number of reasons, like in these sorts of conditions. Mitchell is a great athlete, and generally he'll do what I ask of him."

© Cricinfo

 

[Top_Cat]

I rate Ponting as a decent captain, as I've probably said before, but I haven't been very impressed with him lately. He's been too defensive at times when the likes of Steve Waugh would have been pushing on. And at times he's looked to be lacking faith in his charges.

Ponting is Croje-like with his captaincy sometimes and when his team is up against it, even more so. Pathologically hates losing and that's not often synonymous with an attacking captain.

Don't know why people are so hard on the Aussies for no winning the Test. WI are so lowly ranked in world cricket due to their bowling more than anything; with batsmen such as Shiv and Sarwan in the line-up, batting out the day was always on the cards, particularly on a fairly flat deck and against batsmen intent on occupation without scoring runs. It's incredibly difficult to get batsmen out who aren't trying to come at you or score runs.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The West Indies batting has been as bad as the bowling often in recent years, but this is an improved batting lineup. Chanderpaul has been excellent for a long time now, but Ramnaresh Sarwan looks a transformed player and is hopefully ready to (finally) embrace a 40+ batting average with some consistent scoring. He's really talented enough to average over 50.

If Bravo can conquer his inner attacking demons and Ramdin sorts out his shot selection, West Indies could have a decent top 7. Gayle will return eventually and Chattergoon and Marshall are both talented.

 

[Sanz]

Don't know why people are so hard on the Aussies for no winning the Test.

IT's not people though. Its Ponting himself and maybe to some extent some aussie fans who expect to win every test match.

Its okay to draw.

 

[howardj]

I've go no problem with the gap closing between Aus and the other teams. I would just prefer, for cricket's sake, that the closing was due to the other teams getting better rather than us coming back to the pack.

 

[Burgey]

TBF though, we won't have a real idea if they've come back to the pack until they've had a settled side for a while.

Casson will debut. No one can seriously say if he gets tonked in his 1st test then it's the end for him; Johnson is playing his 1st overseas tests; Jaques is still new, as is Haddin. I think you have to reserve judgment until these guys settle into it.

It may well be that Australia come back to the pack, but from a medium term POV, how can we know it will happen until these guys get a decent crack at it?

 

[Johnners]

Mate, Ponting could fart incense clouds of praise at the opposition after they play well, and for a lot of people here, there would still be grounds to bag him.

AWTA

 

[honestbharani]

yes, smart guy, your saying that Pointing is over-rated is the same as me calling Dravid a dunderhead .... but unfortunately for you thats not the point here and it's not surprisingly that you didn't get the central idea

the point is you don't say the below to someone who calls Dravid a dunderhead



and ignore the same logic, when calling Ponting over-rated

thats the point i m making, i.e. practice what you preach

thanks for acknowledging that I am smart.


IF you are having difficulty comprehending what I meant, let me try to break it down as much as I can:



a. You called Dravid a dunderhead, it is NOT the same as me saying Ponting as a captain is over rated.


b. I said Dravid would know a lot more about cricketing selections than you do, so you calling him names was a bit rich.


c. I am not saying I know more than Ponting. I just said that his captaincy skills are over rated by some people in the board here. And there a number of ex-players who feel that way too. This is hardly some shocking accusation or name-calling unlike what went on in that thread when you called Dravid a "dunderhead".


d. Expressing an opinion is different from throwing insults at a well-respected cricketer, at least here in the forum. I didn't call Ponting anything, juz said his captaincy is over-rated and if you still cannot see the difference, give it a rest. I am sure no one is enjoying reading this crap and if you are not going to stop, then at least I am. Call this "ret kicked Bharani's ass" as well, if that is what puts you to sleep at night.....

 

[Nate]

Aus-WI series has thrown the body clock completely out of whack. I'm pretty much jetlagged.

And I could ask the same question to you?

I'm just dire. I don't even have an excuse for being up this late, really; I just am. I could blame it on Test in England, but the day's play finished a few hours ago and I'm still up. Similar reasons to Gelman I suppose - recent Tests in the West Indies.

Made myself go to bed at 3, even though I wasn't tired. Didn't get to sleep until 6.

 

[Jnr.]

c. I am not saying I know more than Ponting. I just said that his captaincy skills are over rated by some people in the board here. And there a number of ex-players who feel that way too. This is hardly some shocking accusation or name-calling unlike what went on in that thread when you called Dravid a "dunderhead".

Who - besides sideshowtim - overrates Ponting as captain?

For someone to be overrated, they actually have to be well rated first.

Lurking on these boards, it's fairly obvious that most posters believe that Ponting is the worst captain to ever set foot on a cricket field and will use any opportunity to sink the boot in.

I find that very sad.

 

[honestbharani]

Who - besides sideshowtim - overrates Ponting as captain?

For someone to be overrated, they actually have to be well rated first.

Lurking on these boards, it's fairly obvious that most posters believe that Ponting is the worst captain to ever set foot on a cricket field and will use any opportunity to sink the boot in.

I find that very sad.

dunno the exact stuff but if you look around for posts around the last Ashes and maybe any series of Australia between the 2005 and 2006 Ashes, you will see what I mean. And of course, when I said, "some" people, I meant strictly that... "some", not many.


And yeah, there are people who perhaps under rate him as captain too, but my point was mainly towards the people who felt he would have been a great captain with any team.

 

[Richard]

Like the West Indies in the 80's. They didn't win every series, they just didn't lose any.

Between '76 and '86 IIRR they failed to win just 2, out of what must've been between 15 and 20. 1 was in NZ in '79/80 when, well, things could very easily have gone the other way TSTL, and the other was in Australia in '81/82 in one of the ultimate first-plays-second series which was drawn 1-1.

 

[Richard]

Australia have 'come back to the pack'

Honestly, I'm truly astonished people still think there's any point in saying this.