*Official* English Football Season 2007-08

[Barney Rubble]

Defoe won't be on the plane in 2010 if we qualify unless a major injury crisis occurs.

Love to know who you think will be. For my money, it'll be Rooney, Owen, Defoe, Ashton, Walcott. I'd also put money on Defoe being in the top three English goalscorers in the 2008-09 season.

 

[aussie]

Tbh I really expect he will, and if he repeats the form of last season over the next two years then there is no reason why he shouldnt.

Love to know who you think will be. For my money, it'll be Rooney, Owen, Defoe, Ashton, Walcott.

I see Walcott more as a winger but ah well. I'd have to give a quick blue-print of how i think a possible 23-man squad for 2010 could look like to explain why i see no reason for Defoe to be picked by Capello.

GOAL-KEEPERS:

- James
- Kirkland
- Green/Almunia/Foster/Hart/Lewis - depending on who plays more first team football & impresses Capello really.

DEFENDERS:

- Terry
- Ferdinand
- Woodgate/King - depending on who is fit & the time of course
- Richards
- A Cole
- Bridge
- Brown/Johnson/Neville/Onhua - Would keep my eye on Comrad Neville although he'd be 35 then these last few years could well turn out to be a blessing in disguise for him, his presence in 2010 could be very good since i still have my doubts about the other young Right-backs crossing ability & the big match temperament of Wes Brown.

MID-FIELDERS:

- Gerrard
- Hargreaves
- Barry
- Lampard
- Carrick
- J Cole
- Beckham
- Walcott
- Bentley

STRIKERS:

- Rooney
- Owen
- Crouch
- Ashton/Heskey - depending on who performes

Defoe would have to challenge on on Ashton/Heskey of course. But as i mentioned before in this thread only Rooney & Owen combines pace with finishing ability as strikers so need to pick Defoe who may be quick but as absolutely no end product. Its similar to the right-wingers such as SWP, Lennon & Pennant all quick but don't have end product like Becks & Bentley so shouldn't be near the national side.

Target men in Crouch, Ashton/Heskey just have to be used how Heskey was used in the back end of our EURO qualifiers i.e using their height (Crouch) or strenght Ashton/Heskey to unsettle defenders thus giving Rooney or Owen space to run off. Thats a plan, its much better off than picking a man that most quality international defenders wouldn't have much worry handling.

He's certainly not first choice by any stretch of the imagination, but given that he's scored 8 in the last 12, should be around the squad somewhere

As i just explained no way. But given that Capello is a bit new to some of these players i expect him to pick him but when qualifiers againts Croatia, Ukraine & potential friendlies againts top-class opposition come around with in the next two years i really can't see a man like Capello picking him. Given he said himself the other day ``some players look good in training but don't replicate that on game day`` ominous comment that.

no point picking players that are supposedly better but aren't showing it.

I suppose you are refering tho Ashton here, he just needs more games IMO to be judged if he can do a job at the international level really. With Defore surely we have seen enough of him for England to know he aint good enough regardless of his premiership form.

Gerard for instance had an absolute shocker in that game

Couldn't care less at least we know Stevie G can do it in big matches againts quality opposition although he hasn't for England alot, but thats in the past now hopefully Capello can make him & all the rest play for ENG like they do for their clubs.

Ha, can't believe Defoe is causing such a long debate...

 

[sledger]

Couldn't care less at least we know Stevie G can do it in big matches againts quality opposition although he hasn't for England alot

At all for England tbh, last important thing I can remember him doing for England was scoring against Germany during the 5-1.

 

[aussie]

Had a decentish WC though, but yea didn't come to the party againts Portugal.

Its weird though that he hasn't gotten any stick from the media & fans over the years, especially given how Lamps was treated recently.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Gerrard is overrated IMO, that said nowhere near as much as Fat Frank. Fat Frank did play decently at times tbf near the end of last season but this does not stop him from being extremely overrated as a whole IMO.

 

[sledger]

Indeed, both of them seem to dissapear during the big matches, particularly for England, Gerrard did very little in the world cup tbh, certainly nothing of any note (apart from missing that penalty), the same can be said for Lampard, who really should have been dropped after the group stages.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Defoe who may be quick but as absolutely no end product.


a man that most quality international defenders wouldn't have much worry handling.

Don't agree with this at all. If anything, his goalscoring record in the Premiership shows that "end product" (by this, I assume you mean "finishing ability/goals") is one of the things he definitely does have. I don't see how you can look past a guy with his record, and then go and nominate both Crouch and Heskey for your potential squad. Yes, they're a different type of player, but if there's one player in recent years who has had too many chances at international level, and who hasn't delivered enough "end product", as you so vaguely define it, it's Emile Ivanhoe Heskey. Crouch, equally, has yet to really impress at international level against a team other than Jamaica.

As for "wouldn't have much trouble handling him", again, I point to his goalscoring record in a Premiership that's full of some of the world's best defenders. It just seems here that you've decided you're not picking Defoe and that's that, you're not looking at the facts. I just don't see how Defoe is any less proven at international level than Crouch, Ashton or Heskey.

 

[sledger]

^spot on.

Imo whether or not he is good enough for England remains to be seen, but one thing that is certain is that he warrants a run of games in teh side against decent opposition, he deserves just as much (in fact probably more) as any of the other possible candidates.

 

[cpr]

Why mention Almunia as a possible keeper for 2010. I'll get in the England squad before him. Fact of the matter is, whatever he claims he's trying to do, England wont pick a mercenary foreigner who cares nothing beyond getting an international cap. Capello might rate him, but the FA wouldnt allow it. It'd make a mockery of the tradition of the English game, and more importantly for them, open them up to abuse from the press/the rest of Europe.


And before you point to Hargreaves as a mercenary foreigner, he isnt. He's from an English family and from the start of his career set his heart on playing for England. Didnt get a transfer over here and decide 'Ah if my country doesnt want me by the time i'm 30, i'll play for these lot'

 

[Craig]

Well Frank Lampard could be an inter player soon since Mourinho is the new manager and he is coming up to the last year of his contract.

 

[sledger]

Why mention Almunia as a possible keeper for 2010. I'll get in the England squad before him. Fact of the matter is, whatever he claims he's trying to do, England wont pick a mercenary foreigner who cares nothing beyond getting an international cap. Capello might rate him, but the FA wouldnt allow it. It'd make a mockery of the tradition of the English game, and more importantly for them, open them up to abuse from the press/the rest of Europe.


And before you point to Hargreaves as a mercenary foreigner, he isnt. He's from an English family and from the start of his career set his heart on playing for England. Didnt get a transfer over here and decide 'Ah if my country doesnt want me by the time i'm 30, i'll play for these lot'

See Pietersen, Kevin.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Had a decentish WC though, but yea didn't come to the party againts Portugal.

Its weird though that he hasn't gotten any stick from the media & fans over the years, especially given how Lamps was treated recently.

It's not weird at all, it's the way the media and people work. BBC has several Liverpool fanboys on its panel and they're top of the media tree, the likes of Motson are too stupid to make up their own mind and just go off the hype generated by said fanboys amongst others and it self perpetuates. You've then got the newspapers with journalists who are generally thick, lazy folk whi generally copy the same script the BBC uses. At the bottom of this food chain are the idiot masses - the average football fans.

Of course with football it's generally a subjective thing to judge performances, so the hype and these biases have a heavy influence on most people. Personally I actually watch what's happening and make my own mind up because I'm smarter and more analytical than any of these wallies shooting their mouth off in the media.

 

[cpr]

See Pietersen, Kevin.

Different in Cricket, we've always taken the mercenary foreigner. The FA however, seem to have this notion that were the best football side and no damn johnny foreigner is better than us. Took alot to appoint a foreign manager at first, will take a hell of a lot to have a foreign player. Players like Hargreaves and John Barnes were different, they had ties to England, a desire to play for England from the start. Taking in a player like Almunia just wont happen with England. Opening that door would kill off the game at grassroots level. Imagine the motivation for the young keeper, 'Oh your not going to get into the England team, theres a better Spaniard who isnt capped we can nab'

The idea of Almunia has never been suggested by the FA, its come from the guy himself, and dragged up by the press.

 

[sledger]

The idea of Almunia has never been suggested by the FA, its come from the guy himself, and dragged up by the press.

ndeed, but a few years ago iirc the FA were quite keen on Cudicini playing for England were he to declare his eleibility...though doubt that will ever happen now.

I'm hoping that Almunia never does play for England, 1) because I don't rate him, and 2) because he isnt English, though tbh I wouldn't rule out the possibility, wouldn't put anything past the goons at the FA, as they don't seem to have much of a clue.

 

[aussie]

Don't agree with this at all. If anything, his goalscoring record in the Premiership shows that "end product" (by this, I assume you mean "finishing ability/goals") is one of the things he definitely does have. I don't see how you can look past a guy with his record, and then go and nominate both Crouch and Heskey for your potential squad.

Outside Owen & Rooney no other striker in the land has the end product to be successful @ internatinal level despite what they do in the premiership. But the difference between him & Heskey/Crouch is that at least they have done a job at times to compensate their lack of goal-scoring ability which is to be nuances to opposition defenders i.e Owen/Heskey partnership (pre EURO 2004 & latter stages of Euro 2008 qualifiers) & Crouch damn he works tirelessly his performance vs Croatia @ Wembley convinced be enough he can do a useful player. Would expect Ashton based on what i've seen of him to add some goal-scoring ability to the physical game the he could bring up front for ENG in the future once he stays fit since he seems to get injured alot.

With Defoe all he does when he comes on running all over the place & when he gets anwhere around the penality area he looks woeful

Yes, they're a different type of player, but if there's one player in recent years who has had too many chances at international level, and who hasn't delivered enough "end product", as you so vaguely define it, it's Emile Ivanhoe Heskey. Crouch, equally, has yet to really impress at international level against a team other than Jamaica.

As i just mentioned Heskey may have gone missing but has done a job so has Crouch. Defoe has not & don't ever expect him to @ the international level.

As for "wouldn't have much trouble handling him", again, I point to his goalscoring record in a Premiership that's full of some of the world's best defenders.

I'm struggling to find a solid central defensive partnership outside the top 4 now or in recent years outside the BIG 4 tbh, although potentially Tottenham with Woodgate/King could be very solid, Campebll/Distin & maybe something Leeds United had when they did well during that CL run in 01 (ok i guessing now)

But anyway his record aint all that impressive:

West Ham 99-04 - 29 goals in 93 matches
Tottenham 04-08 - 43 goals in 134 matches
Pompey - 12 goals 8 matches

Only in his short stint for Pompey so far has he scored heavily but most of his goals where scored againts average premiership sides expect for Chelsea who i remember at the time where going a bit of sticky period.

But regardless i really couldn't be bothered about what he has done in the league since he has proven to be useless againts decent/quality international teams.

Look way back in the days around 2001/02 probably when he first came on the scene i had high hopes for him i remember joking he'd be better black player than Barnes after seeing him score a goal againts United around that time, but damn seeing him for ENG i take it back..

It just seems here that you've decided you're not picking Defoe and that's that, you're not looking at the facts. I just don't see how Defoe is any less proven at international level than Crouch, Ashton or Heskey.

In comparison to cricket me not rating Defoe or not wanting to pick him is similar to ENG and Ramprakash ATM. In that he may be scoring heavy runs but given his past exploits againts quality oppositon one isn't that fussed to pick him again. Not a perfect comparison but you get where i'm coming from.

While me going for Crouch or Heskey would be similar to IND if they wanted to recall Akash Chopra if another one of Sehwag's partners failed. In that Chopra may not have dominated attacks (Heskey & Crouch may not have scored goals), but as Sehwag partners he did a crucial job (similar to what Crouch/Heskey have done) of giving IND crucial starts & not exposing their talented middle-order to the new ball ofen (see 03/04 season vs AUS & PAK) until he flopped.

 

[aussie]

Different in Cricket, we've always taken the mercenary foreigner. The FA however, seem to have this notion that were the best football side and no damn johnny foreigner is better than us. Took alot to appoint a foreign manager at first, will take a hell of a lot to have a foreign player. Players like Hargreaves and John Barnes were different, they had ties to England, a desire to play for England from the start. Taking in a player like Almunia just wont happen with England. Opening that door would kill off the game at grassroots level. Imagine the motivation for the young keeper, 'Oh your not going to get into the England team, theres a better Spaniard who isnt capped we can nab'

The idea of Almunia has never been suggested by the FA, its come from the guy himself, and dragged up by the press.

Word out, solid post.

 

[sledger]

with regards to this Defoe debate, I would point out that though Ashton/Heskey/Crouch offer a different approach, that isnt neccesarily a benefit, a striker similar to Owen is clearly needed, for example, Defoe would have been the perfect player to replace Owen after his Injury at the world cup in 2006, because he has pace and can finish, If Owen got injured at the next world cup when the only other out and out strikers in the squad were Heskey and Crouch? my god that would be dire.

 

[Barney Rubble]

with regards to this Defoe debate, I would point out that though Ashton/Heskey/Crouch offer a different approach, that isnt neccesarily a benefit, a striker similar to Owen is clearly needed, for example, Defoe would have been the perfect player to replace Owen after his Injury at the world cup in 2006, because he has pace and can finish, If Owen got injured at the next world cup when the only other out and out strikers in the squad were Heskey and Crouch? my god that would be dire.

Another valid point. I can't see the reasoning for having another target man in the squad besides Crouch/Ashton/Heskey. By 2010 I think it'll be Ashton.

 

[aussie]

with regards to this Defoe debate, I would point out that though Ashton/Heskey/Crouch offer a different approach, that isnt neccesarily a benefit, a striker similar to Owen is clearly needed, for example, Defoe would have been the perfect player to replace Owen after his Injury at the world cup in 2006, because he has pace and can finish.

But he wouldn't have, i'd have much rather to have backed Lampard in his woeful state ATT to have scored.

If Owen got injured at the next world cup when the only other out and out strikers in the squad were Heskey and Crouch? my god that would be dire.

Well unfortunately thats the position we are faced with the striker in the national side behind Owen & Rooney. Here backing Agbonlahor to be a hit in the next 2 seasons..

 

[Barney Rubble]

But he wouldn't have, i'd have much rather to have backed Lampard in his woeful state ATT to have scored.



Well unfortunately thats the position we are faced with the striker in the national side behind Owen & Rooney. Here backing Agbonlahor to be a hit in the next 2 seasons..

See, that's the kind of stupid comment that completely negates your argument. Sledger makes a perfectly reasonable suggestion and then you just reply with "no, he wouldn't have, you're wrong". Any reason why he wouldn't have? You're just stating your opinion the whole time, you're not giving any reasons or evidence to suggest why you believe this.