Are Kolpak players hurting English cricket?

[BoyBrumby]

I'd agree about the incentives, I seem to recall the figure of £1100 per player being bandied about as a penalty for counties playing non-English qualified players as non-overseas; I say stick a zero on the end & see what happens. I'd imagine a lot of the smaller counties (your Derbyshires & your Northamptonshires, say) are totally reliant on the money the ECB doles out to them.

Still like to see legislation to stop quite so many Kolpaks too tho.

 

[steds]

I'd imagine a lot of the smaller counties (your Derbyshires & your Northamptonshires, say) are totally reliant on the money the ECB doles out to them.

Reckon it's closer to almost all of the counties. Twenty20 and the possible staging of an international are the only two real moneyspinning options available to them.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Reckon it's closer to almost all of the counties. Twenty20 and the possible staging of an international are the only two real moneyspinning options available to them.

Given then that the ECB seems to have the counties very much by the cobblers it's a bit remiss of the board not to have squeezed harder.

 

[Richard]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with saying simply "no Kolpak players". There's still millions of overseas players who can get passports from somewhere in the EU. And if that isn't stopped too, there'll still be hundreds of non-English players around.

 

[Goughy]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with saying simply "no Kolpak players". There's still millions of overseas players who can get passports from somewhere in the EU. And if that isn't stopped too, there'll still be hundreds of non-English players around.

Because it isnt realistic or relevant to the world we currently live in.

In not really in favour of financial incentives or penalties. I think it takes an element of team building out of the system.

If measures were to be brought in then there are 2 possible ways IMO. Either on their own or combined.

- Set a maximum squad size each County is allowed to employ but English players Under a certain age do not count against the total. eg 13 players under contract allowed but English players under 23 do not count to the limit.

- Set a Salary cap but English players under a certain age dont count towards the cap. Should mean investment in young local talent as they are 'free' and key to building a side and expenditure on old players and Kolpaks is limited.

Both these measures do not stop a team designing a structure they belive can bring success and allows a great deal of scope for variation.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Because it isnt realistic or relevant to the world we currently live in.

In not really in favour of financial incentives or penalties. I think it takes an element of team building out of the system.

If measures were to be brought in then there are 2 possible ways IMO. Either on their own or combined.

- Set a maximum squad size each County is allowed to employ but English players Under a certain age do not count against the total. eg 13 players under contract allowed but English players under 23 do not count to the limit.

- Set a Salary cap but English players under a certain age dont count towards the cap. Should mean investment in young local talent as they are 'free' and key to building a side and expenditure on old players and Kolpaks is limited.

Both these measures do not stop a team designing a structure they belive can bring success and allows a great deal of scope for variation.

Speaking as an economist, both of those are still financial incentives... just creative ones, and exactly the right way to bend the market to the aims of the national game.

 

[Goughy]

The ideas I mention above are the ones Id be most in favour of using if something was put in place. However, Im not really a fan of any schemes that impact the market.

They generally have unforseen secondary issues that cause additional problems.

Im fine with the system as it currently is, with any changes looking to be made on a national and European level rather than a cricket one.

 

[brockley]

You wait to the aussies join you will be flooded with kolpaks then

 

[Richard]

Because it isnt realistic or relevant to the world we currently live in.

Cricket has long been divorced from most other walks of life, and far more enjoyable for it.

 

[wpdavid]

The ideas I mention above are the ones Id be most in favour of using if something was put in place. However, Im not really a fan of any schemes that impact the market.

They generally have unforseen secondary issues that cause additional problems.

Im fine with the system as it currently is, with any changes looking to be made on a national and European level rather than a cricket one.

Well I won't be holding my breath for that to happen.

I suspect that the problem isn't so much the situation now, but more what it might look like to a few years time. At present there seem to be opportunities for young English cricketers, but that won't be the case if the increase in the number of Kolpaks continues.

As I said elsewhere, the sometimes mooted regional 4-day competition may be a way around the problem, so long as the players continued to be actually employed by the counties and therefore the sides for the 4-day games are representative and, maybe, somehow linked to the national side.

 

[Goughy]

Well I won't be holding my breath for that to happen.

I suspect that the problem isn't so much the situation now, but more what it might look like to a few years time. At present there seem to be opportunities for young English cricketers, but that won't be the case if the increase in the number of Kolpaks continues.

As I said elsewhere, the sometimes mooted regional 4-day competition may be a way around the problem, so long as the players continued to be actually employed by the counties and therefore the sides for the 4-day games are representative and, maybe, somehow linked to the national side.

Thats a possible workable idea. Doesnt get rid of the Kolpaks but adds a layer they are not allowed to play in.

Something like
North
South
Central
Greater London
Yorkshire

would work fine

 

[wpdavid]

Thats a possible workable idea. Doesnt get rid of the Kolpaks but adds a layer they are not allowed to play in.

Something like
North
South
Central
Greater London
Yorkshire

would work fine

Yeah, we couldn't expect the tykes to join anyone else

My version, to completely replace the CC was:
- Yorkshire & Durham
- Lancs & Derbyshire
- Surrey & Kent
- Sussex & Hampshire
- Warwickshire & Worcestershire
- Northants, Leicestershire & Nottinghamshire
- Middlesex & Essex
- Somerset, Gloucestershire & Glamorgan

 

[Goughy]

I wouldnt replace the CC with a regional system. Id hate to throw all that heritage away and as a Yorkshireman there is no way Id vote to get rid of the symbol of my national identity.

Id add it as an extra layer of no more than 5-6 teams in a round robin of 4 day games and reduce CC to 17 3 day games.

Counties would then get paid for the selection of one of their players to the regional team.

 

[wpdavid]

I wouldnt replace the CC with a regional system. Id hate to throw all that heritage away and as a Yorkshireman there is no way Id vote to get rid of the symbol of my national identity.

Id add it as an extra layer of no more than 5-6 teams in a round robin of 4 day games and reduce CC to 17 3 day games.

Counties would then get paid for the selection of one of their players to the regional team.

No, I know that feelings run stronger about these things in your neck of the woods and I also know that we probably won't agree on this. My opinion, fwiw, is that tagging on handful of regional games doesn't adress the current problem that most of the current county games involve really moderate players, and that would still be the case. And does the current YCCC "all comers" XI really have much to do with your national identity anyway?

Apart from that 3 day cricket, even with 120 overs supposedly being bowled apart from when bad light intervenes (is that what you're suggesting?) is a recipe for even more drawn games than we get at present. And it would probably do even less for spinners not to get the chance to bowl on Day 4 wickets.

I'm in two minds about returning to one division. It must help that the potential England players currently in Div 2 would get to play the better sides. But the weaker sides in D2 are so poor that I'd really prefer them not to be opponents at all for potential England players.

EDIT
The other point that still needs to be addressed is improving the supply of young cricketers coming through, which still doesn't strike me as nearly strong enough. But if that doesn't happen, then a 4-day competition without Kolpacks over overseas players won't actually achieve an awful lot.

 

[Goughy]

No, I know that feelings run stronger about these things in your neck of the woods and I also know that we probably won't agree on this. My opinion, fwiw, is that tagging on handful of regional games doesn't adress the current problem that most of the current county games involve really moderate players, and that would still be the case. And does the current YCCC "all comers" XI really have much to do with your national identity anyway?

Apart from that 3 day cricket, even with 120 overs supposedly being bowled apart from when bad light intervenes (is that what you're suggesting?) is a recipe for even more drawn games than we get at present. And it would probably do even less for spinners not to get the chance to bowl on Day 4 wickets.

I'm in two minds about returning to one division. It must help that the potential England players currently in Div 2 would get to play the better sides. But the weaker sides in D2 are so poor that I'd really prefer them not to be opponents at all for potential England players.

Lots of different questions there

Yorkshire CCC means a great deal to me and my identity as Im still a Yorkshireman but no longer live or travel on a British passport. Even if I did, its a big part of the culture.

Ive never been a fan of 3 day cricket and thought the move to 4 day cricket was correct. However Im having reservations as Im now starting to give value to the arguments against. 4 day cricket at CC level promotes mediocracy. Players are able to grind out runs and teams dont have to be able to take the bull by the horns and attack. Nothing 'special' is required to get runs or take wickets or win games.

The extra time brings everyone together and makes evaluating talent harder. 3 day cricket would probably have more draws but the more talented players capable of creating wins will be more valuable than wins just happening as a game meanders.

Im starting to believe (as some people have said for a long time) that 3 day cricket in England places an emphasis on the good players to perform and bring results and doesnt allow the average to do as well. Almost seperating the men from the boys.

Average cricketers can do pretty well in 4 day cricket as far less initiative is required than in 3 day games.

There is also the advantage that it frees up a number of days for other cricket whether that be regional of T20.

As for the divisions. I think its a good thing for the CC. For England prospects it is probably not ideal but if Division 2 is that weak then Id like to see prospects either help get their team promoted (show responsibility, leadership and production) or show ambition and move on. Runs and wickets in Div 2 shouldnt count for as much as Div 1 in evaluating talent.

I like the idea of the extra layer as they act as Test trials. IMO massively cutting the number of FC teams just makes less places available for English players.

 

[Goughy]

The other point that still needs to be addressed is improving the supply of young cricketers coming through, which still doesn't strike me as nearly strong enough. But if that doesn't happen, then a 4-day competition without Kolpacks over overseas players won't actually achieve an awful lot.

Ah, this is a very different question and one that has many of its roots in failures of the English coaching system.

Just to put things in perspective. Some individual Prep schools (lets say 40 boys in the year group) in South Africa are the equiv of County junior reps teams of the same age. We know that because they play each other in festivals.

 

[wpdavid]

Ah, this is a very different question and one that has many of its roots in failures of the English coaching system.

Just to put things in perspective. Some individual Prep schools (lets say 40 boys in the year group) in South Africa are the equiv of County junior reps teams of the same age. We know that because they play each other in festivals.

Doesn't surprise me at all. And one knock on effect as things stand is that more & more of these young South Africans' career plans will involve spending 10-15 years in county cricket as Kolpaks for all the obviosu reasons. Wonderful for 'the market'. Not so wonderful in producing and England side in 10 years' time.

 

[Goughy]

Doesn't surprise me at all. And one knock on effect as things stand is that more & more of these young South Africans' career plans will involve spending 10-15 years in county cricket as Kolpaks for all the obviosu reasons. Wonderful for 'the market'. Not so wonderful in producing and England side in 10 years' time.

I think you maybe right. All it takes is a few industrious agents with good connections in both countries and a flood of young South African talent could be coming over.

If Id have stayed there a few years longer I would have wanted that to be me

 

[wpdavid]

And does the current YCCC "all comers" XI really have much to do with your national identity anyway?

I got that bit wrong - only Rudolph out of your current staring XI was born outside of Yorkshire.

 

[Richard]

The other point that still needs to be addressed is improving the supply of young cricketers coming through, which still doesn't strike me as nearly strong enough. But if that doesn't happen, then a 4-day competition without Kolpacks over overseas players won't actually achieve an awful lot.

As Kev pretty much said, nothing at all really to do with the senior county level, and completely down to lower levels. Coaching being one problem - lack of interest another.