SS "Most overrated batsmen of all time: All of them"

[Ikki]

Let me go find it. If I am wrong, I'd be happy to apologize.

It's simple math too. You look at Warne's FC record, subtract that from his Test record so there are no international tests and you have, more or less, his FC record. He only played a few years in England and his record is pretty much the same - check their site. So it wouldn't make sense for him to average 35 in Australia as it would need him averaging something in the single digits in England .

 

[Ikki]

Lohmann didn't play enough tests or against enough countries for a proper comparision.

OHHHHHHHHHH, so you mean there are other things to take into account too...it's not just average and strike-rate. My bad.

 

[silentstriker]

Sidenote: You keep saying Warne averaged 35 in the Australian domestic scene. I already replied to this saying I tallied up his career in Australian domestic cricket and it could not be above 30 and was closer to his overall record. If you have info disproving this, I'd appreciate if you were forthcoming. And if you don't, then please don't spread the fallacy.

Let me go find it. If I am wrong, I'd be happy to apologize.

Here it is.

You can also tally it up by each FC opponent. There aren't too many sides in Australia, so you can tally up his average that way too. They have every scorecard of every domestic game Warne ever played, so feel free to check those out as well.

Suffice it to say, he does indeed average close to 35 in Australian domestic cricket. Of course, it doesn't mean much since he did an excellent job at the Test level, but it's the best way to guess how he would do vs. Australia (unless you think he might do better vs. the Australian XI than the domestic players, in which case we'll have to agree to disagree.)

 

[Slifer]

You still haven't said anything that really proves your point. Lillee didn't do well everywhere. Neither did Marshall or McGrath. How does Lillee compare to Marshall or McGrath then? And Lillee doesn't compare to Warne because Lillee has a much worse record against Pakistan than Warne does against India.

Anyway, your criteria doesn't make Marshall > Warne/Murali. As I replied to Slifer in many points, they're too different. Had Marshall played the same roles as Warne and in the same game/team conditions as Warne, for example, I'd seriously doubt he'd keep his average. There is a reason why generally pace bowlers have lower average and SR and it isn't always something to do with their ability.

Sidenote: You keep saying Warne averaged 35 in the Australian domestic scene. I already replied to this saying I tallied up his career in Australian domestic cricket and it could not be above 30 and was closer to his overall record. If you have info disproving this, I'd appreciate if you were forthcoming. And if you don't, then please don't spread the fallacy.

Please tell me in which country or against which team Marshall didnt do well against. To quote Jeff Thompson: "Malcolm Marshall was the best bowler. He was not huge, released the ball late, bowled sharp, was up there, bowled pretty quick. He just got wickets everywhere, on pitches where we never did." Btw im pretty sure if Marshall was playing in the same Aussie team as Warne i would expect him to have a record very similar to Glenn Mcgrath, as i consider both to more or less be in the same class.

 

[Ikki]

Please tell me in which country or against which team Marshall didnt do well against. To quote Jeff Thompson: "Malcolm Marshall was the best bowler. He was not huge, released the ball late, bowled sharp, was up there, bowled pretty quick. He just got wickets everywhere, on pitches where we never did." Btw im pretty sure if Marshall was playing in the same Aussie team as Warne i would expect him to have a record very similar to Glenn Mcgrath, as i consider both to more or less be in the same class.

He did well in NZ? News to me.

 

[Ikki]

Here it is.

You can also tally it up by each FC opponent. There aren't too many sides in Australia, so you can tally up his average that way too. They have every scorecard of every domestic game Warne ever played, so feel free to check those out as well.

Suffice it to say, he does indeed average close to 35 in Australian domestic cricket. Of course, it doesn't mean much since he did an excellent job at the Test level, but it's the best way to guess how he would do vs. Australia (unless you think he might do better vs. the Australian XI than the domestic players, in which case we'll have to agree to disagree.)

Well, weird, but it does look right. I'll go trudge through all the years he played in Australia. I think this might be his Pura cup record as he has bowled less for Victoria than Hampshire? Doesn't seem right. When I went through his career in Sheffield shield there were many more years played in Australia than he did in Hampshire which is only 4 years IIRC?

 

[Slifer]

U got to be kidding??!! He played one 3 test series in NZ ,wow. What is his overall record against NZ? And for that matter Tell me how much ur beloved Shane Warne averages in the WI and in and against India.

 

[silentstriker]

Well, weird, but it does look right. I'll go trudge through all the years he played in Australia. I think this might be his Pura cup record as he has bowled less for Victoria than Hampshire? Doesn't seem right. When I went through his career in Sheffield shield there were many more years played in Australia than he did in Hampshire which is only 4 years IIRC?

The Australian season is also shorter though, and he has 11,000 balls for Victoria and 14,000 for Hampshire, so it does imply he bowled for a longer time for Victoria but due to the Australian structure, he played less overall games.

 

[Ikki]

U got to be kidding??!! He played one 3 test series in NZ ,wow. What is his overall record against NZ? And for that matter Tell me how much ur beloved Shane Warne averages in the WI and in and against India.

Haha, this is hilarious, weren't you a part of the same crowd lambasting Lillee for his record in Pakistan? Point being no bowler is close to perfect, not even Malcolm Marshall. And if you still think that because he is the closest to it - albeit not by much - then he still is the best it flies face first to the fact that the general cricket fraternity do not regard him in the same light as someone like Lillee - who also has a poor test in Sri Lanka to boot.

 

[Ikki]

The Australian season is also shorter though, and he has 11,000 balls for Victoria and 14,000 for Hampshire, so it does imply he bowled for a longer time for Victoria but due to the Australian structure, he played less overall games.

Yeah but I am talking about a lot more years than just 4 or so. Either I've made a big mistake or some of these stats aren't being counted.

I'd also like to know if when he bowled for the other assorted Australian sides he played THE Australian test side. These scorecards are kinda hard to find - at least for me.

 

[silentstriker]

I'd also like to know if when he bowled for the other assorted Australian sides he played THE Australian test side.

What do you mean? Also, I am fairly certain the stats are correct because cricketarchive is not the place I found them, it was first mentioned in an Sydney Morning Article I read - this is the first time I actually went in and verified it. The person who wrote the article in SMH was fairly well known so I had taken it on his word at that point.

 

[Ikki]

What do you mean? Also, I am fairly certain the stats are correct because cricketarchive is not the place I found them, it was first mentioned in an Sydney Morning Article I read - this is the first time I actually went in and verified it. The person who wrote the article in SMH was fairly well known so I had taken it on his word at that point.

Well, I'll check them again. I remember going through the state competition year by year and recalling his averages. Maybe the years where he averaged well he didn't play many tests and the years he did awfully he played many more? I don't know, that could explain it.

What I mean is that Australia has often fielded 2nd XI sides to face their Test side. I'd like to see if Warne played any matches in these 2nd XI sides and how he fared.

 

[silentstriker]

What I mean is that Australia has often fielded 2nd XI sides to face their Test side. I'd like to see if Warne played any matches in these 2nd XI sides and how he fared.

Ah. Here are all the FC sides he faced. I'm assuming that if it was a 3-4 day affair, that it would be granted FC status, so would be there if he faced them at all. And here are some matches which are categorized as 'other'.

 

[social]

What have Warne's fc stats in Oz got to do with anything?

Unless he was playing tests, and even then it wouldnt be a guarantee, chances are that the guy spent all night boozing and chasing birds anyway, so they dont prove a thing

 

[Slifer]

Haha, this is hilarious, weren't you a part of the same crowd lambasting Lillee for his record in Pakistan? Point being no bowler is close to perfect, not even Malcolm Marshall. And if you still think that because he is the closest to it - albeit not by much - then he still is the best it flies face first to the fact that the general cricket fraternity do not regard him in the same light as someone like Lillee - who also has a poor test in Sri Lanka to boot.

Marshall is a whole lot closer to bein a complete bowler than the likes of Lillee and warne and murali.

 

[Ikki]

What have Warne's fc stats in Oz got to do with anything?

Unless he was playing tests, and even then it wouldnt be a guarantee, chances are that the guy spent all night boozing and chasing birds anyway, so they dont prove a thing

Well, I brought it up and I am looking for the records. The Victoria bowling records are non-existant now in Cricinfo (well at least the early 90s) but I was able to find around 4 of them to the mid-to-late 90s. Warne was excellent one year and pathetic the rest. If the rest of his record looks like this I must have been looking in the batting averages . Amazing, if he was doing that bad then it's unbelievable he turned that all around in Test cricket. He faced great Test sides and did so well at home. It's inexplicable. Him boozing about actually would make some sense.

 

[Ikki]

Ah. Here are all the FC sides he faced. I'm assuming that if it was a 3-4 day affair, that it would be granted FC status, so would be there if he faced them at all. And here are some matches which are categorized as 'other'.

Thanks, not sure that says it though. Thanks also for your digging, I must now maintain that, strangely, Warne was pretty poor in Australian domestic Cricket.

 

[silentstriker]

Well, I brought it up and I am looking for the records. The Victoria bowling records are non-existant no in Cricinfo but I was able to find around 4 of them to the mid-to-late 90s. Warne was excellent one year and pathetic the rest. If the rest of his record looks like this I must have been looking in the batting averages . Amazing, if he was doing that bad then it's unbelievable he turned that all around in Test cricket.

Not sure if he turned it around per se, it's more like Australians are good players of spin and the pitches don't really help him much. Most spinners get hit around too in Australian conditions and vs. Australian players.

 

[silentstriker]

Thanks, not sure that says it though. Thanks also for your digging, I must now maintain that, strangely, Warne was pretty poor in Australian domestic Cricket.

I really don't think its a real big deal anyway as firstly, I only like looking at Test records to judge a player, and it really only comes into play when trying to compare performances to the best of the best and trying to guess how he would do vs. Australia or something. Generally, I personally ignore people's domestic records once they have had a decent run at the international level, and I think that's the way to go.

 

[pasag]

Pretty well known that Warne was never a very good domestic player, that's part of the reason why he's so good (imo, anyways), because he was able to lift when it mattered, on an international level and within that level itself. It's why people like me rate him so highly, that extra level he was able to rise to, for the occassion (though not getting involved in the Warne vs fast bowler debate, I'll take them both please ).