Who is better Imran Khan or Glenn Mcgrath?

[Richard]

I understand your point mate, but I don't see how we can pick and choose which laws we abide by and which we choose to ignore.

We can't, of course we can't, else that's a very slippery slope. What I've always hated are silly laws, however, and especially when some are disproportionately criticised for breaking these. The ball-tampering law is impossible to define - what is a "foreign" substance? How do you define legal saliva and illegal saliva? If mints can help, so easily could lettuce. There's no way to ban players from eating this or that. Similarly there's no way to ban certain other substances (like suncream) being used to enhance natural products like sweat and saliva.

I've said it before - I'd be only happy for ANYTHING to be used to shine the ball. Vaseline, polish, whatever. Balls are manufactured using such substances - why should rules change between manufacture an in-use? Not de-shine it, but shine it. I'm not suggesting people should be allowed to take knives out onto the field and gouge chunks out of the ball, though I do think putting a bit of soil dust on the thing is also fine. That's perfectly "natural", every bit as natural as sweat or saliva.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Do you have any proof that Imran regularly gouged chunks out the ball and used foreign items (which includes vaseline and sunscreen, technically), or are you merely assuming so? From what I remember, Imran mentioned he only once used a foreign object, when playing for Sussex and Hampshire in 1981. He never did it in an international match.

The fact that Imran,Wasim & Waqar were Pakistanis(and were successful fast bowlers) is an undeniable proof that they were regularly involved in ball tampering by using foreign items & lifting up the seam

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Apparently Imran placed a chapter in his book which mentioned ball-tampering. I haven't read it, but that's what I've heard.

And that automatically means that he was regularly involved in ball tampering?He did it only once in his life & that too in a FC game.All these trolls should present concrete evidence or otherwise keep their mouths shut.

 

[Athlai]

And that automatically means that he was regularly involved in ball tampering?He did it only once in his life & that too in a FC game.All these trolls should present concrete evidence or otherwise keep their mouths shut.

Did you just call Rich a troll?

 

[SJS]

Except nearly every pace bowler from the era indulged in ball-tampering, it's not as if this practice started with reverse swing. It was an accepted part of the game. Are we going to discard all of the greats from that time because tampering was so common?

I never talked of discarding anyone just as my views on Murali and the 15 degrees of flex allowed by ICC to cover up what was once illegal do not EVER prevent me from saying that he is the greatest off spinner of all times.

But we need to have the largeness of heart to accept what's wrong is wrong even if it involves our heroes.

Secondly, the fact that many were breaking the law is no reason not to remember that they were still breaking it. Bribery and corruption in India is rampant. I know very few who are completely innocent of it. That will never make it correct or legal.

Where it started is also not relevant. there were people who chucked before but no one tried to cover it with a veneer of respectability by talking of "so many are doing it". We have to understand that it is this acceptance by the public, the authorities etc that makes what's illegal but still a 'contained' menace rampant. Whether it be chucking, ball tampering, lack of respect for the opponent, umpires and the spirit of the game or corruption (to stick to my non-cricketing example), we have to understand our role in turning it into the cancer it becomes unchecked.

 

[Richard]

Did you just call Rich a troll?

Nah, just those who claim such a thing.

Though actually now I think about it, I'm not entirely sure whether or not anyone's ever mentioned it on CW. I'd not be surprised if they had, but the only place I've ever heard about the supposed chapter was somewhere else.

 

[Richard]

Bribery and corruption in India is rampant.

Bribery and corruption everywhere is rampant. It's worse in some places than others, of course, and it's far less widespread on a per-capita basis now than it once was. But it's still an enormous problem, and is likely to continue to be for the foreseeable future.

 

[Swervy]

And that automatically means that he was regularly involved in ball tampering?He did it only once in his life & that too in a FC game.All these trolls should present concrete evidence or otherwise keep their mouths shut.

Anyone who thinks he did just the once in his life is somewhat naive I think.
To be honest, I dont really know how much more concrete evidence you need, the guy admitted to doing it.

 

[subshakerz]

Anyone who thinks he did just the once in his life is somewhat naive I think.
To be honest, I dont really know how much more concrete evidence you need, the guy admitted to doing it.

He admitted to using a foreign substance once in a first class match, while scratching and lifting the seam occasionally like most bowlers of his time did. If he had the guts to admit this, unlike many others, then I believe him.

And I do not consider lifting the seam and scratching the ball as major offenses, the same way I do not consider bowlers of his time hurling bouncer after bouncer as a detriment to their quality. In both cases, they were considered accepted practices that pushed the boundaries of the rules. Nowadays, both aspects have been marginalized and the game has tilted completely in the favor of the batsman and is much more boring as a result.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Anyone who thinks he did just the once in his life is somewhat naive I think.
To be honest, I dont really know how much more concrete evidence you need, the guy admitted to doing it.

If he'd done it regularly,he would've never mentioned the occasion when he did it.The guy had enough courage to admit that he did it just to experiment the diffeference it makes in quality of bowling.And he was neither lunatic nor in a court defending such charges when he wrote those words.You can't show even one video of his 88 match test career & FC career doing such a thing.So,as they say "innocent unless proven guilty".

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Did you just call Rich a troll?

Nah,those who post such rubbish.I've talked to Richard on this topic on MSN & therefore I know he's not amongst them.

 

[Swervy]

So,as they say "innocent unless proven guilty".

but he admitted to doing it, its about as guilty as you can get really is it not?

 

[Richard]

Did you read the rest of the post?

 

[Swervy]

Did you read the rest of the post?

yep...

and....

 

[Richard]

And it explained why it's a case of IUPG despite the fact that there was a single case where he admitted doing it.

 

[Swervy]

And it explained why it's a case of IUPG despite the fact that there was a single case where he admitted doing it.

and its a naive way of looking at it.

 

[Richard]

So is it a naive way of looking at it that we never saw any evidence of other bowlers doing it and they didn't admit it, so therefore they must've been less guilty than Imran?

Yes, of course it is.

 

[Migara]

True, but reverse swing delivered at high pace in general tends to swing in late and swing in more than a conventional swinging delivery. Of course, this depends upon the state of the pitch and ball as well...

It's the opposite usually. As reverse swing bowled at high pace, there is little time for ball to swing. Biggest swingers of the cricket ball in modern days were conventional swing bowlers (Ex. Kapil Dev, Kallis, Hoggard, Vaas, De Villiers, Lance Cairns, Shane Bond etc)

 

[Manee]

and its a naive way of looking at it.

I hate the dire use of naive as someone who does not believe the negative in a situation.

 

[Sanz]

Imran Khan admitted in 1994 that he had "occasionally scratched the side of the ball and lifted the seam".

He added: "Only once did I use an object. When Sussex were playing Hampshire in 1981 the ball was not deviating at all.

"I got the 12th man to bring out a bottle top and it started to move around a lot."