are you saying chappell is not worthy of comparison with either of these players? don't agree at all, he would feature in most serious discussions for best after bradman...and would definitely belong in the 2nd tier of batsman below bradman....
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Vivian Richards vs Sachin Tendulkar
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
i will give it a try:
in no particular order:
- don bradman
- jack hobbs
- garfield sobers
- len hutton
- victor trumper
- wally hammond
- brian lara
- sachin tendulkar
- viv richards
- everton weekes
- george headley
- steve waugh
- allan border
- greg chappell
- sunil gavaskar
- hanif mohammed
- javed miandad
- graeme pollock
- barry richards...
all i can think of right now so maybe he sneaks in as the 20th...
Sachin Tendulkar.
Viv Richards didn't have the pressure of 1 billion people when he came onto bat. Neither did he alone have to handle the entire mantle of the team when batting.
In 2000 when Azharuddin, Jadeja and Prabhakar were accused of match fixing, the bookies told that Sachin never took bribe when offered. This shows the character of the man.
Viv Richards didn't have the pressure of 1 billion people when he came onto bat. Neither did he alone have to handle the entire mantle of the team when batting.
In 2000 when Azharuddin, Jadeja and Prabhakar were accused of match fixing, the bookies told that Sachin never took bribe when offered. This shows the character of the man.
Burgey
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No one says he isn't a great bloke mate. But if the pressure of 1 billon people on his shoulders hasn't been a factor in affecting his game, why didn't he handle the captaincy very well?
Obviously.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
It's really hard to tell...it would be a matter of exactly how dodgy 19th century wickets were.
Yes.
Contentious, IMO. No doubt that Lara exceeds Ponting at his best, but usually Ponting exceeds Lara.
In the 1990's, yes, by quite a long way. In the 2000's, injury has limited him, allowing Ponting to be more prolific. Still, I'll give you this one, given the conditions of the 2000's versus the 1990's.
Contentious when it comes to Test matches, if not ODI matches.
Yes.
Yes. He was dubbed 'the black Bradman'.
Contentious. Waugh>>>Ponting in the 1990's, Ponting>>Waugh in the 2000's, as Waugh seemed to lose his ability to score against any attack better than mediocre post-2001. Ponting>>Waugh as an ODI batsman, IMO.
Border>Waugh? Yes. Border>Ponting? Maybe, given the conditions in which Border was made to score runs.
Yes, I can just about give you this one.
Much as I am loathe to admit it, probably, given his scoring against the West Indies. His failure to feast on England (particularly during the 1980's) is a sore point, though. Ponting>>Gavaskar in ODI's, IMO.
His 337 is noteworthy, but his average seems a tad low for consideration. I shouldn't judge a player solely on averages, but his career finished before I was born, so what choice do I have?
Maybe in the ODI's, but examination of his Test record (abject failure against the West Indians, for one thing) makes me a little skeptical. Ponting has a >45 Test average against all nations, I believe.
Yes. EDIT: May have played too few Tests, now that I think about it.
Played too few Tests.
A touch higher, given those that you listed.all i can think of right now so maybe he sneaks in as the 20th...
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Why didn't Ian Botham and Andrew Flintoff handle captaincy well? It is indeed possible to a great batsman and be found wanting tactically (Steve Waugh, for one, criticised some of his decisions during India's wretched 1999-2000 tour of Australia).
Burgey
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Certainly, but I'm saying that the "1 billion people" argument may not even be something he thinks about (which I suppose would say something about the simpplicity of his approach to his work, and good on him).
He averaged a hardly disastrous 50 odd as captain in any event, just that his average when not skipper is stratospheric.
Edit: on the list of batsmen ahead of Ponting on the previous page, I'd have to place him on a par at least with Waugh, maybe Border but not Chappell (yet). It's a bias of mine, but runs in the top 3 and (to a lesser extent) at 4 earn b onus points vs runs at 5, 6 or 7. Similarly, Pollock was a great player, but I'd still argue he played too few tests to compare his record with some of the other guys who've played 70, 80, 100 tests or more and average only 5 or so runs per innings less. I mean, if Jimmy Adams test career had have been curtailed after 18-20 tests, he'd have had an average of 70 odd.
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Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Even Bradman got out occasionally, which is directly correlating with what the above comparison actually says... which is nothing. I don't see your point Jono.
When Ponting has 7-8 years of scoring 46 runs on average (disregarding minnows), then we'll compare. Thus far, he's had no such poor form like Sachin's.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Hey dude have you heard of some1 called Jack Hobbs?...I heard he used to held a bat once upon a time in test cricket...
Very good point. Pollock played 23 Tests, BTW. At that time, Adams' average was near-identical to his (and would rise during his 24th Test, before falling away badly thereafter).Certainly, but I'm saying that the "1 billion people" argument may not even be something he thinks about (which I suppose would say something about the simpplicity of his approach to his work, and good on him).
He averaged a hardly disastrous 50 odd as captain in any event, just that his average when not skipper is stratospheric.
Edit: on the list of batsmen ahead of Ponting on the previous page, I'd have to place him on a par at least with Waugh, maybe Border but not Chappell (yet). It's a bias of mine, but runs in the top 3 and (to a lesser extent) at 4 earn b onus points vs runs at 5, 6 or 7. Similarly, Pollock was a great player, but I'd still argue he played too few tests to compare his record with some of the other guys who've played 70, 80, 100 tests or more and average only 5 or so runs per innings less. I mean, if Jimmy Adams test career had have been curtailed after 18-20 tests, he'd have had an average of 70 odd.
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Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
LOL, are you trying to suggest Shoaib Akhtar, Wasim Akram and Saqlain Mushtaq were not a formidable force? And yes, whilst Ponting didn't get to face Waqar and Wasim as much as (which is only one less than Tendulkar), Tendulkar averaged 9 against the same "easybeats" Ponting scored runs off.
Then, we have also the S.Africans, where there can be no question here that Tendulkar failed against and Ponting dominated.
BTW, when Ponting actually kept to one position...
So he beat the 'great' attacks of the 90s just as well as Tendulkar did and when he did have an established position he averaged 51. And in this era, he is absolutely rocking it, regardless of how much you wish to believe bowling standards/pitches are aiding him. 64 over 8 years is incredible. What is more incredible is that if you remove Bang/Zim it's 63.
And who cares how many centuries he had in how many innings. Took Sobers 17 Tests (29 innings) to get his 1st.
Burgey
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Your quote (perhaps inadvertantly) shows how cricket has changed. If someone in the 70s or 80s, even 90s, averaged 46 for 8 years, they'd be considered in the very, very, very good class.
I recall in the early 80s hearing some of the commentators (Benaud and Chappell iirc) saying a benchmark they used was 40 - quality test player; 45 - very, very good test player; 50+ - great test player.
archie mac
International Coach
Dravid?
masterblaster
International Captain
Sachin Tendulkar for me everytime. It's truly been a pleasure to witness most of his great knocks throughout his career. While I truly admire and enjoy watching Viv Richards (I voted for him in the poll against Greg Chappell) Tendulkar in my opinion is somewhat ahead.
My reasons are my own, but for me Tendulkar was simply unstoppable at his peak and was better than Viv when both were at their very best. Tendulkar at his worst still would likely outperform Viv due to Tendulkar's remarkable technique and his mental strength.
Viv would never be able to score a double century against the world's best team without hitting a single cover drive after getting out to the stroke the last few innings.
For me, Tendulkar's technique and mental strength is remarkable and second to none, which earns him my vote.
My reasons are my own, but for me Tendulkar was simply unstoppable at his peak and was better than Viv when both were at their very best. Tendulkar at his worst still would likely outperform Viv due to Tendulkar's remarkable technique and his mental strength.
Viv would never be able to score a double century against the world's best team without hitting a single cover drive after getting out to the stroke the last few innings.
For me, Tendulkar's technique and mental strength is remarkable and second to none, which earns him my vote.
masterblaster
International Captain
Whilst Dravid was a very good batsman back in 1999, you could say he didn't achieve greatness until that period in 2002 - 2004. Dravid's batting reached another level in those years and he was just in the best form of his life during those years.
Googenheim
U19 12th Man
Ask the likes of Noel David and MSK Prasad.
archie mac
International Coach
Granted, but he was still pretty good, so to say STW had no support is not correct
Googenheim
U19 12th Man
Maybe Tendulkar should wear insoles and swagger around in a blue India cap chewing gum, while averaging 36 now on
Allan Border would be better qualified than most, having actually set fields to Viv. As coach during the Sharjah tournament, he and Steve Waugh admitted pretty much to having no effing idea where to bowl to Tendulkar.
Manee
Cricketer Of The Year
Although I am unaware of the standards and quantity of video analysis in the 1970s and 1980s, Tendulkar has been subject to more plans than any other batsman of the age, from off theory to outside leg stump by Ashley Giles.
Interestingly, Tendulkar averages an astonishing 63.55 in an Indian won Test, in comparison to Richards' 52.43 - Tendulkar's innings have proved more vital to his team's victory - of course, this may be due to Tendulkar's superior conversion rate of fifties to hundreds but it also underlines that Richards' biggest knocks did not necessarily demoralise an opponent into defeat.
However, I have watched clips of Sir Viv batting and it is quite amazing how he would batter the ball with a flourishing flow of the bat. He clearly had magnificent hand-eye coordination. One thing I have noticed is that he scored about 90% of his runs through the leg side, with a large proportion of the off side runs coming off a premeditated in-to-out shot; would it be right to assume that the bowling was more stump to stump orientated in the 1970s and 1980s? If this is the case, which I don't know, then I believe that Tendulkar would have similarly dominated, since we all know of his prowess in the leg side, especially early in his career.
Cracking poll results, 50% to 50%.
Interestingly, Tendulkar averages an astonishing 63.55 in an Indian won Test, in comparison to Richards' 52.43 - Tendulkar's innings have proved more vital to his team's victory - of course, this may be due to Tendulkar's superior conversion rate of fifties to hundreds but it also underlines that Richards' biggest knocks did not necessarily demoralise an opponent into defeat.
However, I have watched clips of Sir Viv batting and it is quite amazing how he would batter the ball with a flourishing flow of the bat. He clearly had magnificent hand-eye coordination. One thing I have noticed is that he scored about 90% of his runs through the leg side, with a large proportion of the off side runs coming off a premeditated in-to-out shot; would it be right to assume that the bowling was more stump to stump orientated in the 1970s and 1980s? If this is the case, which I don't know, then I believe that Tendulkar would have similarly dominated, since we all know of his prowess in the leg side, especially early in his career.
Cracking poll results, 50% to 50%.