**Official** New Zealand in England

[Leslie1]

If Fulton is unavailable I'd use Todd. I have my doubts but Ryder is unavailable and Flynn is too raw. I'd back Todd to score more, alot more, than Sinclair, Marshall and Parlane.

Daniel Flynn hasn't done his chances any harm with the form he's shown this season. It might be a one off however, as he hasn't rack up the numbers previous 3 seasons. Man I wish SKY would just bite the bullet and broadcast domestic cricket. Even have a cricket channel. Raw, maybe, but I'd argue he'll be the first 'raw talent' picked ahead of Guptill, Todd and even Hay thanks to the sheer weight of runs he's got in both forms of the game.

I don't know much about Todd though, any notable performances you can talk about?

 

[Flem274*]

Daniel Flynn hasn't done his chances any harm with the form he's shown this season. It might be a one off however, as he hasn't rack up the numbers previous 3 seasons. Man I wish SKY would just bite the bullet and broadcast domestic cricket. Even have a cricket channel. Raw, maybe, but I'd argue he'll be the first 'raw talent' picked ahead of Guptill, Todd and even Hay thanks to the sheer weight of runs he's got in both forms of the game.

I don't know much about Todd though, any notable performances you can talk about?

Now now don't let your ND bias get ahead of you he's more talented than Todd (whos not talented, just solid) and Guptill but Hay has alot more FC runs, a better technique, and he's from CD. That means he's better.

Flynn averages 31 in domestic cricket compared to Hays 52 which is the highest career average out of the current domestic cricketers (Fleming 43, Sinclair 46, Fulton 47)

I went through Todds technical stuff in a previous post in the thread. Apart from 2 hundreds in one game he hasn't done much, a few fifties here and there. Test class but not the cream of the bunch.

 

[Leslie1]

Lol. Fair enough. I like the 'sounds' of Hay at the moment. He was interviewed in TV3 sports segment and he has the right attitude. That goes a long way.

Okay, NEW problem. With the emergence of Southee, I think we have a problem with our bowling attack options.

Check this out. Would like to pick you guys' brains on how to select our top 11 on the BOWLING side.

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Imagine if Vettori is just a spinner like Patel. Would you include both him and Patel in the same side? Because honestly that would mean Southee (or our third seamer) is left out.

Bowling attack's awkward balance:

J How + another opener + number 3 batsman + number 4 batsman + Ross Taylor + Jacob Oram (All rounder) + B McCullum (wk)

Now we need our bowlers (4 spots left)

Martin + Mills + Patel + Vettori
Martin + Mills + Southee + Vettori
Martin + Mills + Southee + Patel

Should the last bowling spot really be about whether we choose Patel or Vettori? Or do we sacrifice Southee's spot for Patels?

The stats from the just completed series.

 

[Prince EWS]

Now now don't let your ND bias get ahead of you he's more talented than Todd (whos not talented, just solid) and Guptill but Hay has alot more FC runs, a better technique, and he's from CD. That means he's better.

Flynn averages 31 in domestic cricket compared to Hays 52 which is the highest career average out of the current domestic cricketers (Fleming 43, Sinclair 46, Fulton 47)

I went through Todds technical stuff in a previous post in the thread. Apart from 2 hundreds in one game he hasn't done much, a few fifties here and there. Test class but not the cream of the bunch.

Sinclair actually averages 50 odd in domestic First Class cricket - his Test performances bring his First Class stats down.

 

[Flem274*]

Leslie, I know you don't like Vettori but he is a vital player in our side. He really gives it some great depth/balance. As a spinner unless we're on a turner he isn't a huge wicket taker however he does create pressure and stops scoring. Patel is the type who is either going to take a bagfull or get smashed. When we want a wicket we don't throw the ball to Vettori we throw it to Mills or Martin or Southee. to help create pressure and stop scoring dead we have Vettori at the other end.

As a batsman he is vey important. Most sides would love a good test bowler that can dig them out of the poo when needed down at number 8. England for example would be keen on him as their top order is rather fragile too atm.

IMO if we drop a seamer we drop Martin or Southee. Its such a harsh call if we drop Martin but he isn't as destructive as the other seamers, which says alot for the quality of our seam attack. Martin is the reliable workhorse (sorta in the Hoggard vein) but I honestly believe next season if we're back at full strength he will be the first reserve seamer. As a frontline bowler he doesn't have the X factor of Mills or Franklin and Southee looks really special at this early stage. Martin is excellent but his role shortly will be as the reliable, sometimes destructive, reserve bowler that will come into the side when needed.

There's also the fact that since our top order is an unknown quantity atm, if Patel were to come into the side Martin has yet another factor going against him.

TBH though unless we're on a pitch that has real turn I'd pick Martin over Patel anyway.

 

[Flem274*]

I've found an opener that averages 50 in domestic cricket!!!

Former U-19 rep Iain Robertson. Think he's moved into the Canterbury middle order now though. Also seem to recall Otago or someone figured him out in a domestic game. He stormed along to 50 odd then they cut off the scoring areas around point and got him out immediately.

 

[Athlai]

Na Phlegm reckon you're wrong about Patel either getting a bagful or smashed. Think he's only a little bit more likely to get smashed than Vettori, think the pressure building spells he bowled in the recent Tests demonstrated that he's certainly no mug with the ball.

But I'm starting to find troubles with our inability to field the best attack we have due to the team dynamic.

Oram at six is all well and dandy but there has been great talk of his decline in bowling (a recent reemergance in it's value has ended in an injury) and frankly lately Oram's been dire with the bat. In effect he can't bowl massive spells (usually, the recent Tests being an exception) and he can't bat that well due to a form slump.

So what does this do to the team?

Well it prevents us from fielding a genuine 5 man attack. Vettori-Martin-Mills-Patel-Southee if we remove Patel and stick in Franklin then we have a very fine seam attack to boot. (In case of Franklins injury healing up get him in there for Southee).

Now IMO McCullum, Vettori and even Franklin could do a decent job at 6 if given a chance there, which would open up our attack options. I love Jacob Oram, I really do, I think he's a keen asset to the team but when he's out of form, or injured we shouldn't stick with him or find a cheap replacement (Elliot) we should try a new shape for the team.

We have the worlds best batsman ever at 8, thats fantastic. Yet I'd rather a solid batsman up the order than the best at the bottom of it. Vettori has to pull his socks up and get ready to change the order so it benefits the New Zealand team the most.

I'm curious to see what CW thinks about the promoting of Vettori, and the potential of the likes of Southee one day to be batting up the order. And before anyone says that Southee doesn't look like a top order batsman or anything along those lines, please keep in mind how old he is and how much can change over the course of a career (Cairns, Styris, Vettori) batting CAN wildly improve if the talents there.

 

[Athlai]

I've found an opener that averages 50 in domestic cricket!!!

Former U-19 rep Iain Robertson. Think he's moved into the Canterbury middle order now though. Also seem to recall Otago or someone figured him out in a domestic game. He stormed along to 50 odd then they cut off the scoring areas around point and got him out immediately.

Don't get me too excited now Phlegm, an actual opener???

 

[Flem274*]

Don't get me too excited now Phlegm, an actual opener???

I remember him opening with Papps and getting a decent score. He's also batted at around five though.

ATM Papps and Todd Aste are the openers.

 

[Athlai]

Knew it was too good to be true. TBH I'd rather like to see how Hay could go at the top, apparently thats where he batted in youth age cricket.

 

[Flem274*]

Na Phlegm reckon you're wrong about Patel either getting a bagful or smashed. Think he's only a little bit more likely to get smashed than Vettori, think the pressure building spells he bowled in the recent Tests demonstrated that he's certainly no mug with the ball.

But I'm starting to find troubles with our inability to field the best attack we have due to the team dynamic.

Oram at six is all well and dandy but there has been great talk of his decline in bowling (a recent reemergance in it's value has ended in an injury) and frankly lately Oram's been dire with the bat. In effect he can't bowl massive spells (usually, the recent Tests being an exception) and he can't bat that well due to a form slump.

So what does this do to the team?

Well it prevents us from fielding a genuine 5 man attack. Vettori-Martin-Mills-Patel-Southee if we remove Patel and stick in Franklin then we have a very fine seam attack to boot. (In case of Franklins injury healing up get him in there for Southee).

Now IMO McCullum, Vettori and even Franklin could do a decent job at 6 if given a chance there, which would open up our attack options. I love Jacob Oram, I really do, I think he's a keen asset to the team but when he's out of form, or injured we shouldn't stick with him or find a cheap replacement (Elliot) we should try a new shape for the team.

We have the worlds best batsman ever at 8, thats fantastic. Yet I'd rather a solid batsman up the order than the best at the bottom of it. Vettori has to pull his socks up and get ready to change the order so it benefits the New Zealand team the most.

I'm curious to see what CW thinks about the promoting of Vettori, and the potential of the likes of Southee one day to be batting up the order. And before anyone says that Southee doesn't look like a top order batsman or anything along those lines, please keep in mind how old he is and how much can change over the course of a career (Cairns, Styris, Vettori) batting CAN wildly improve if the talents there.

I've been thinking about Franklin batting at 6 for a wee while now. I know in emergencies he bats at five for Wellington. Don't think he's a test class number 6 as of now though. McCullum could do it with Vettori at seven. Ryder is another possibility of we have a bunch of new batsmen succeed in the next couple of years.

I'd love an attack of Martin, Mills, Franklin, Southee, Vettori with Patel coming in on turners. The thing is though Jacob Oram is an awesome batting allrounder. His form is ordinay atm but when on song he is a trump card in our line up. If he solves his technical issue I'm sure he'll be back. I suspect he'll break down in four or so years but then hopefully Corey Anderson is ready for the step up. As a stop gap I'd back McCullum or Ryder whilst Oram is injured. I don't think Franklin is up to it, he's a bowling allrounder. England found out with Flintoff that bowling allrounders struggle long term at 6.

 

[Bahnz]

Eh? Why would scores made in provincial/B comps count for First Class?

Shoe in? If he opens then yes, definitely. However our middle order prospects look strong. There's about to be a big scrap between Taylor, Fulton, Ryder, Hay, Todd and possibly Flynn. All bar Todd have the ability to average 40+.

None of that lot (save Todd) are number 3's though, they all bat at either 4 or 5, and I reckon the majority of them would struggle batting higher than that in test cricket. Myburgh is a genuine number 3 and in terms of his domestic record, he's miles ahead of any other top order in bat in the country besides Sinclair. In the mean time, maybe we should try bringing back Andrew Jones again...

 

[Flem274*]

Knew it was too good to be true. TBH I'd rather like to see how Hay could go at the top, apparently thats where he batted in youth age cricket.

You do realise I hate people like Crowe that want Hay opening from test one? Remember the last middle order men that could open? I believe their names were Fleming, Vincent, Fulton and Sinclair. All failed. Hay when he enters the side should bat where he bats for CD: Four or five. If he was much of an opener he would have opened for us ahead of Ingram and Barnett.

 

[Flem274*]

None of that lot (save Todd) are number 3's though, they all bat at either 4 or 5, and I reckon the majority of them would struggle batting higher than that in test cricket. Myburgh is a genuine number 3 and in terms of his domestic record, he's miles ahead of any other top order in bat in the country besides Sinclair. In the mean time, maybe we should try bringing back Andrew Jones again...

Todd bats at four. I'm sure Flynn bats at three, I think you said so yourself. If Hay is as technically excellent as Greatbatch says then number three shouldn't be too much of a step up (I don't want him opening though). I seem to recall Fulton batting at three before his call up.

 

[Bahnz]

Todd bats at four. I'm sure Flynn bats at three, I think you said so yourself. If Hay is as technically excellent as Greatbatch says then number three shouldn't be too much of a step up (I don't want him opening though). I seem to recall Fulton batting at three before his call up.

Nah, Flynn's batted at 5 or 6 throughout the season. Todd's spent at least most of the season (I can't be bothered checking every scorecard) at number 3. And Fulton's moved down the order since Myburgh turned up, indicating that even at first class level he's a better fit for the role.

 

[Nutter]

Martin + Mills + Southee + Vettori would be the four bowlers for me. Jeets is just about as likely to get a wicket as Martin, and both are good against the left handers, so it's fairly even stevens here. Jeets might have the upper hand when it comes to fielding and batting, but I think on England's seam friendly tracks and dodgy weather, Martin has the ability to pick up 6-fers out of the blue with his swing.

On another note, Martin's bowling a lot faster than when he first came onto the scene - about 5kph faster on average. Now if Franklin could do that...

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

que

Hate to be a spelling nazi, but I have seen it more than once.

queue

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

Leslie, I know you don't like Vettori but he is a vital player in our side. He really gives it some great depth/balance. As a spinner unless we're on a turner he isn't a huge wicket taker however he does create pressure and stops scoring. Patel is the type who is either going to take a bagfull or get smashed. When we want a wicket we don't throw the ball to Vettori we throw it to Mills or Martin or Southee. to help create pressure and stop scoring dead we have Vettori at the other end.

As a batsman he is vey important. Most sides would love a good test bowler that can dig them out of the poo when needed down at number 8. England for example would be keen on him as their top order is rather fragile too atm.

IMO if we drop a seamer we drop Martin or Southee. Its such a harsh call if we drop Martin but he isn't as destructive as the other seamers, which says alot for the quality of our seam attack. Martin is the reliable workhorse (sorta in the Hoggard vein) but I honestly believe next season if we're back at full strength he will be the first reserve seamer. As a frontline bowler he doesn't have the X factor of Mills or Franklin and Southee looks really special at this early stage. Martin is excellent but his role shortly will be as the reliable, sometimes destructive, reserve bowler that will come into the side when needed.

There's also the fact that since our top order is an unknown quantity atm, if Patel were to come into the side Martin has yet another factor going against him.

TBH though unless we're on a pitch that has real turn I'd pick Martin over Patel anyway.

Totally agree with everything here!

 

[Flem274*]

Hate to be a spelling nazi, but I have seen it more than once.

queue

Suspected as much, it just didn't look right but I CBA checking it. Cheers.

WRT Nutters post, I have no doubt that Jimmy Franklin could bowl faster with the height and power he has (he can hit further than Oram FFS). Whether his newly injured knee would hold up though is another matter.

Speaking of injuries, I think the reason we struggle to compete at times is because our best bowlers always seem to get injured and retire in their early thirties instead of going on into their mid thirties. As recently as 2006 Dion Nash would have been young enough still to be bowling. At one point our attack could have comprised: Bond, Nash, Doull, Cairns, Vettori. Our attack now could be Bond, Martin, Mills, Franklin, Vettori. That is a powerful attack.

Early retirements hurt us in the batting department too. Richardson if he'd carried on would have only just retired, McMillan, Marshall (if he'd regained form), Sinclair (if he'd fufilled his potential) and Vincent could still be around. Our nucleus of blokes in the 25-32 area has been torn asunder. That sort of thing doesn't help.

 

[Bahnz]

On another note, Martin's bowling a lot faster than when he first came onto the scene - about 5kph faster on average. Now if Franklin could do that...

He already is. When Franklin first broke into the side about 4 years ago, he was only bowling about 125 km/h on average.