Sunil blasts the Australians part II

[Ikki]

Is it me or has this forum become more interested with discussing Race than Cricket?

 

[Engle]

But a black hole is black. It's not called a black hole as in a bad hole, or anything, it is a hole that is black.

Indeed it is, a color. As is ' being in the black ', again a color.
' Black eye ' if used to describe color is again OK.

But if used in negative connotations, that dont describe a color, then not so OK.
For example, from reputable Canadian Globe & Mail newspaper, here are some usages :

Parmalat is a black eye for big banks
Black Eye for Baseball (Mitchell report)
It's a black day for the auto sector in Canada

More examples such as black magic or black comedy are used frequently, (at the risk of repeating myself), not necessarily in a racist manner, but out of unawareness/ignorance of their offense.

 

[Swervy]

Indeed it is, a color. As is ' being in the black ', again a color.
' Black eye ' if used to describe color is again OK.

But if used in negative connotations, that dont describe a color, then not so OK.
For example, from reputable Canadian Globe & Mail newspaper, here are some usages :

Parmalat is a black eye for big banks
Black Eye for Baseball (Mitchell report)
It's a black day for the auto sector in Canada

More examples such as black magic or black comedy are used frequently, (at the risk of repeating myself), not necessarily in a racist manner, but out of unawareness/ignorance of their offense.

But the term black eye used in that context is to signify an uncomfortable hit on the subject with the implication being that its pretty ugly for now, but with time there will be a healing process, i.e. the damage done is not terminal, just like a black eye.

Black Comedy: Is that particularly negative?

Really though, being offended because someone says 'black eye for Baseball' is just taking this whole thing way way too far (I am not saying you were offended, but you have brought it up as an example).

It is just human nature that in general we see the positive from 'light', so people tend to be in better moods when the sun is shining, the brain is most responsive to the colour yellow, light is associated with day time and safety, darkness (i.e. night) exposes us as vunerable (as one of our senses has effectively been taken away), darkness stifles growth, light encourages it etc etc. So maybe really this is where the negative side of 'dark' or 'black' comes from. So people can take offense, but seems pretty daft to me...its just getting to that silly stage where it was deemed offensive to use the word 'blackboard', despite the positive connotations of a blackboard (education )

What about the positive images conjoured up by the word 'black', 'In the Black', or a nice sleek black limo, the black ball in snooker being worth most points etc etc.


anyway, maybe back to the cricket.....

 

[Johnners]

Is it me or has this forum become more interested with discussing Race than Cricket?

Sadly, yes.

 

[honestbharani]

Thousands of words out there which have negative connotations if you dig deep enough, but jeez, if we were so obsessed with such things, there would be hardly any English language left.

But this is the way things are going I guess, people scared to use the English language for fear of offending who are looking to be offended.

Back to the issue at hand, seriously, in most parts of the world, referring to someone as being 'black' is not deemed racist (and most definately with the black people I know).

Re: McLaurins comment, there is absolutely no way from reading that article that you can tell what context he was saying that in, so I find it incredible that this has been going on for the last 80 posts on this thread. He was either being terribly pesimistic, or he chose a pretty weak double entendre to make his point....but I am really really struggling tocatch the racist connotations in this.

I didn't say it was racist alone.



MacLaurin said "The future (of the game of cricket) is black"...


He was referring to the fact that the subcontinent was becoming the hub of the game.


He was referring to these countries starting to call the shots, as it were. He could have said that as a jig, but it can also be construed that he meant either of the two things:

a. Black meaning the future of the game is bleak, because the subcontinent is going to call the shots from now.

or

b. He could have meant "black" in a racist way, a la Lehmann..... Not impossible given how misinformed and ignorant some of these ppl are reg. the color of Asians.....


Obviously, when taken in the total context of the interview, we might get a better idea of what he actually meant but it doesn't take away the fact that it was a rather irresponsible comment as a man in his position MUST know that words can be taken out of context by the media and played up.......... IF his intent was to just do a pun on an ad, he should have been clearer.

 

[honestbharani]

Thousands of words out there which have negative connotations if you dig deep enough, but jeez, if we were so obsessed with such things, there would be hardly any English language left.

But this is the way things are going I guess, people scared to use the English language for fear of offending who are looking to be offended.

Back to the issue at hand, seriously, in most parts of the world, referring to someone as being 'black' is not deemed racist (and most definately with the black people I know).

Re: McLaurins comment, there is absolutely no way from reading that article that you can tell what context he was saying that in, so I find it incredible that this has been going on for the last 80 posts on this thread. He was either being terribly pesimistic, or he chose a pretty weak double entendre to make his point....but I am really really struggling tocatch the racist connotations in this.

Nope... not every word will have as much negative connotation as the word "black".... I am sorry, but black is the symbol of everything bad and sad in most cultures around the world. White is the symbol of everything good and pure and black is the obvious opposite. Try and find out if any other color is so universally associated with negative things, then you may have a point.


If your only argument is that the word "black" does not have more of a negative connotation to it than any other color, you are wasting your time. Why do you think they call any day in which something happens a "black day" in so and so........... Why not "white day" or "orange day" or whatever......


White - Purity and Goodness

Black - bad and sinister or at least very sad


Red - bloodshed and gore or sometimes sacrifice, but again has association with blood being spilled.



These colors and their connotations almost stay the same universally, in most cultures.....

 

[honestbharani]

Indeed.

TBH, I sometimes find there are people (certainly not Honest, nor most of the respectable posters on this forum, but undeniably people whose unwise words will whip-up undue frenzies) who will look for racist connotations in anything they possibly can, simply for the excuse to make a fuss.

I have been saying this all along.. I never once said he meant it in a racist way at all. All I am saying is that what he said has negative and even racist connotations as well, unless taken in the proper context and therefore, he should have been more careful when saying stuff like that. Don't expect the media to take everything in context... They will create a story out of even a single word.

 

[honestbharani]

But a black hole is black. It's not called a black hole as in a bad hole, or anything, it is a hole that is black.

What about "black arts" then or "black magic"?



The very word "black" was given to anything that was dark and not very clear to the eye. That is why the color of the space is "black" and that is why you are saying that a black hole is in fact "black"... That is the way it has been since these words came in. Black always refers to darkness, which means lack of clarity and therefore has always been associated with mostly negative things. It has more negative connotation than any other color and that is fact.

 

[honestbharani]

Is it me or has this forum become more interested with discussing Race than Cricket?

When people tell the word "European" is racist.......

 

[Son Of Coco]

Indeed it is, a color. As is ' being in the black ', again a color.
' Black eye ' if used to describe color is again OK.

But if used in negative connotations, that dont describe a color, then not so OK.
For example, from reputable Canadian Globe & Mail newspaper, here are some usages :

Parmalat is a black eye for big banks
Black Eye for Baseball (Mitchell report)
It's a black day for the auto sector in Canada

More examples such as black magic or black comedy are used frequently, (at the risk of repeating myself), not necessarily in a racist manner, but out of unawareness/ignorance of their offense.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Black Dress is generally for mourning.

Black Hole are generally points of no return and we often talk about companies and things "going" into a black hole, which means they have no chance of survival or whatever.


Honestly, mate, if you don't think the word "black" has a lot of negative connotations, then I am not sure what I can tell you.

It has negative connotations, but are they necessarily tied to race? A number of people seem to want them to be, but is it necessarily the truth? Or is it simply necessary to remain angry?

Grey is used in a negative way too, so apologies to all the dead people out there I've just offended.

 

[honestbharani]

It has negative connotations, but are they necessarily tied to race? A number of people seem to want them to be, but is it necessarily the truth? Or is it simply necessary to remain angry?

No, what I said was it could be considered "racist" because some people still do tend to refer to Asians as Blacks..... And it could also be considered that he meant that the game will be impacted negatively if the subcontinent took over, indirectly hinting a bit of racist bias......... Most probably, he didn't mean it in either way, but it can be construed to be as racist as Gavaskar's "Europeans" could be.......

 

[Googenheim]

It has negative connotations, but are they necessarily tied to race? A number of people seem to want them to be, but is it necessarily the truth? Or is it simply necessary to remain angry?

*Sigh*

If the guy in question had used the statement in reference to the African continent, you'd have a point, since he could simply be referring to the black race being more prominent in the game in the future. He may or may not have racist intentions there, but he gets the benefit of doubt, and dollops of it too, for the chance he might have used the word there to denote the race itself (as a matter of fact) rather than use it in a racially degrading manner.


*However*, the situation we're dealing with here does not involve an African race. It involves subcontinentals, whom only the most linguistically challenged would refer to as a black race. So, when he terms the subcontinent-dominated future of the game as black, he is either terribly mistaken about the correct terminology to be used when referring to said race, or consciously painting a negative image of the future of the game in the hands of people from the subcontinent.

 

[silentstriker]

It has negative connotations, but are they necessarily tied to race? A number of people seem to want them to be, but is it necessarily the truth?

If you study the etyomology of some of those words - you will find that some of them are in fact tied to race.

Or is it simply necessary to remain angry?

It is ridiculous comments like this that blow up discussions. It's very easy to dismiss people by calling them angry or bitter - and if you want to come into a discussion with that frame of mind, you might as well stay out. I'm certainly not angry, and neither are most people here - saying something like that just spirals the discussion downward.

 

[Swervy]

If you study the etyomology of some of those words - you will find that some of them are in fact tied to race.

Any examples?

 

[silentstriker]

Any examples?

The online etymological dictionary has some, but as I spoke with Gelman, I'll try to find a scholarly article that I read a couple years back on it and I'll post it as soon as I find it.

 

[R_D]

And it's the biggest heap of bull**** anyone has ever come-up with. Creating more wrongs in the future does not alter one single thing about wrongs committed in the past. It's a pointless, mind-numbingly stupid attitude, and anyone who perpetuates it is a disgrace to humanity. No exaggeration there.

I never advocated doing more wrongs for the past injustices... but just that the whole perception of Europeans being racist... its going to take more than 1 or 2 generation for it to go away.

 

[R_D]

And this attitude is one of the reasons why things don't progress.

its easy to say move on... but more harder to do. Like i said its going to take few generations for things to move on.

 

[R_D]

WTF? Seriously, where did I mention anything about my "shameful ancestors"? & FWIW, just because I'm English you shouldn't assume all my ancestors are. & are we to infer that you think anyone who isn't European gets a free pass on dodgy statements based on the broadest perceptions of race?

Probaly came across bit strong on my part.. sorry for that.
Was bit peeved off about the whole if European did and the call of racism from Sub-cont would have been huge attitude.
What i really meant to say was it is going to take more than just couple of generation to get rid off the Europeans being racist perception..... of course it doesn't mean everyone in Europe is racist but alot of European soceity was in the past where they considered themselves superior.

 

[R_D]

I didn't say it was racist alone.



MacLaurin said "The future (of the game of cricket) is black"...


He was referring to the fact that the subcontinent was becoming the hub of the game.


He was referring to these countries starting to call the shots, as it were. He could have said that as a jig, but it can also be construed that he meant either of the two things:

a. Black meaning the future of the game is bleak, because the subcontinent is going to call the shots from now.

or

b. He could have meant "black" in a racist way, a la Lehmann..... Not impossible given how misinformed and ignorant some of these ppl are reg. the color of Asians.....


Obviously, when taken in the total context of the interview, we might get a better idea of what he actually meant but it doesn't take away the fact that it was a rather irresponsible comment as a man in his position MUST know that words can be taken out of context by the media and played up.......... IF his intent was to just do a pun on an ad, he should have been clearer.

Thank you....... did we see a uproar about this guy's comments in Sub-cont ? I don't think so.....