**Official** England in New Zealand

[Leslie1]

Think they were referencing to him being dropped, then coming back and being actually good.


But, Taylor played horribly in the series in RSA. I'm thankful he had time out to fix himself up. Playing against Bangladesh might've done more harm than good.

I still lament the fact that Fleming won't be around to 'usher' in the new batsmen we're about to bring to England. Taylor probably benefited this series from Fleming's xp more than any other batsman.

Now we're about to have a lineup of new guns with no senior batsmen in the side to show them how to deal with the pressures.

 

[Richard]

Thats how many years ago? Consequently, I know Youtube isn't a good place to judge anything, but why can't I find footage of Vettori bowling against anybody apart from Bangladesh, Ireland and Zimbabwe?

Vettori's most recent big bag of Test wickets came 5 Tests (excluding Bangladesh) ago.

 

[Richard]

I still lament the fact that Fleming won't be around to 'usher' in the new batsmen we're about to bring to England. Taylor probably benefited this series from Fleming's xp more than any other batsman.

Now we're about to have a lineup of new guns with no senior batsmen in the side to show them how to deal with the pressures.

Senior batsmen who are playing members of the squad aren't the only people young batsmen can talk to. Ross Taylor can go and seek out anyone he wants - could be Stephen Fleming, could be Graham Dowling - if he feels he could benefit from trying to learn from their experiences.

TBH, though, Taylor simply needs to keep doing what he did in the just-completed series, and he'll have a long and fruitful career ahead of him. I hope he doesn't need too much cajoling to keep things the same.

 

[Leslie1]

Keeping things the same would work for the English series, but at the moment he's susceptible to spin. I haven't seen him move his feet to spin well, (no chance to) but it will be prominent in the future against India especially.

 

[JBH001]

Vettori's most recent big bag of Test wickets came 5 Tests (excluding Bangladesh) ago.

You mean Sri Lanka? IIRC, Sri Lanka are the only nation among the top tier nations that Vettori has done well against, otherwise it has been a case of minnow bashing. I dont know why, tbh. Leslie1 has a point, Vettori has been an over-rated spinner for a considerable time now.

 

[99*]

You mean Sri Lanka? IIRC, Sri Lanka are the only nation among the top tier nations that Vettori has done well against, otherwise it has been a case of minnow bashing. I dont know why, tbh. Leslie1 has a point, Vettori has been an over-rated spinner for a considerable time now.

Well in the last 8 years Vettori is one of the best spin bowler in tests against Australia. He's behind Kumble (71), Harbhajan (62) and Murali (37) with 32 wickets in 9 matches. Against other teams I'll agree he is not a great wicket taker, but he's not just a minnow-basher.

 

[Leslie1]

It'd be interesting to find out how many wickets he's taken at what average over the last 5 seasons in tests.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

It'd be interesting to find out how many wickets he's taken at what average over the last 5 seasons in tests.

His average is only slightly higher than his overall career average. In which time he averages 41 with the bat.

Not that averages tell you any story, but you are welcome to think so.

 

[NZTailender]

 

[Leslie1]

His average is only slightly higher than his overall career average. In which time he averages 41 with the bat.

Not that averages tell you any story, but you are welcome to think so.

(Feel free to label me a Vettori basher)

So he's in the side as our batsman then? Or would you rather he's our devastating wicket taking bowler (which he was when he first started before succumbing to back injury in '99), or a batsman who bowls stock deliveries?

140 odd of his first test wickets had come really quickly but has stagnated since breaking down and having to tweak his action. He's not the same bowler after that. Now he's seen as a more 'stock' bowler, keeping economy rates down and holding up one end to frustrate batsman. I'm sure he wants to be seen as the best spinner in the world, not just the best "left-arm" spinner, as there aren't much left armers around anyway.

If that is the case, maybe he needs to add something else to his spinning arsenal other than just variations in pace. He's probably at this stage in the middle of his career as a spinner, maybe its time to review how he can best contribute with the ball in tests. In ODIs, he's fine, because nobody can score off him.

 

[99*]

(Feel free to label me a Vettori basher)

So he's in the side as our batsman then? Or would you rather he's our devastating wicket taking bowler (which he was when he first started before succumbing to back injury in '99), or a batsman who bowls stock deliveries?

140 odd of his first test wickets had come really quickly but has stagnated since breaking down and having to tweak his action. He's not the same bowler after that. Now he's seen as a more 'stock' bowler, keeping economy rates down and holding up one end to frustrate batsman. I'm sure he wants to be seen as the best spinner in the world, not just the best "left-arm" spinner, as there aren't much left armers around anyway.

If that is the case, maybe he needs to add something else to his spinning arsenal other than just variations in pace. He's probably at this stage in the middle of his career as a spinner, maybe its time to review how he can best contribute with the ball in tests. In ODIs, he's fine, because nobody can score off him.

Best thing for him is to continue the way he bowls now IMO. He's now the captain, now is not the time for him to try anything new. He now needs to focus less on his own abilities and try to become a better captain. Its been common knowledge that Vettori is not a great test bowler, but the face remains he's New Zealands best bowler and captain.

 

[NZTailender]

He's not our best bowler; in tests anyway. He is 'good' at test level, not great - I agree.


There's a few extra factors to consider here as well: The other spinners in contention for the spinners spot are hardly flash; Bruce Martin has a decent record and did well on some A tours but I have a feeling (bar injury) he'll have a tough time ever getting ahead of Vettori and Jeets. Jetan Patel, to me, is a fine spinner of the ball (spins it more than Dan) but is less consistent and will likely go for more runs if the conditions don't suit; Vettori has changes of pace and flight in his armoury when there's no spin.

There's also the fact that very rarely does NZ get conditions where spin will be the main strike factor - Vettori is very much a support option most of the time.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

(Feel free to label me a Vettori basher)

So he's in the side as our batsman then? Or would you rather he's our devastating wicket taking bowler (which he was when he first started before succumbing to back injury in '99), or a batsman who bowls stock deliveries?

He was hardly ever devastating.
Also, stats don't show the pressure that is built up resulting in wickets at the other end.

140 odd of his first test wickets had come really quickly but has stagnated since breaking down and having to tweak his action.

NZ Test matches have dried up. You will find he almost averages the same, if not better, since his injury. Also, surely you can't expect him to be devastating when playing on NZ pitches?

He's not the same bowler after that.

Yeah, he is not the same bowler. I think he is better. Just look at his ODI figures (since you are judging a lot by stats)

Now he's seen as a more 'stock' bowler, keeping economy rates down and holding up one end to frustrate batsman. I'm sure he wants to be seen as the best spinner in the world, not just the best "left-arm" spinner, as there aren't much left armers around anyway.

Taking wickkets isn't everything. He does a job, and he does it well.

If that is the case, maybe he needs to add something else to his spinning arsenal other than just variations in pace. He's probably at this stage in the middle of his career as a spinner, maybe its time to review how he can best contribute with the ball in tests. In ODIs, he's fine, because nobody can score off him.

He is a spinner from NZ. Seamer > Spinner on NZ pitches. It is silly to go on like this after a home series. Just look at who took all the wickets in the series! Except for Monty in the last innings, it was all pace. His role in NZ conditions is a supporting one!

 

[99*]

He's not our best bowler; in tests anyway. He is 'good' at test level, not great - I agree.


There's a few extra factors to consider here as well: The other spinners in contention for the spinners spot are hardly flash; Bruce Martin has a decent record and did well on some A tours but I have a feeling (bar injury) he'll have a tough time ever getting ahead of Vettori and Jeets. Jetan Patel, to me, is a fine spinner of the ball (spins it more than Dan) but is less consistent and will likely go for more runs if the conditions don't suit; Vettori has changes of pace and flight in his armoury when there's no spin.

There's also the fact that very rarely does NZ get conditions where spin will be the main strike factor - Vettori is very much a support option most of the time.

Must beg to differ there, if you go by how many wickets taken Vettori is NZ's best test bowler as well against all teams, all venues since 2001.
Vettori- 138 @ 35.93
Martin- 120 @ 34.00
Bond- 79 @ 22.39

 

[NZTailender]

Overall, since 2001, there may be an argument, but as of right now I'd say Martin and Mills are our best. Not counting Franklin who is injured. IMO Franklin would be #1, given Bond's gone to the ICL.

 

[Leslie1]

Bond- 79 @ 22.39

A freak of nature.

Why Bondy? Why?

 

[Flem274*]

IMO James Franklin is our best test bowler by a fair way. He's one that slipped under the radar both here and overseas. Too many people wrongly say Martin is our best strike bowler when really its Franklin. I think its his ODI record that hurts him in the eyes of the general public. If we played tests more often he'd get the credit he deserves.

 

[Leslie1]

Overall, since 2001, there may be an argument, but as of right now I'd say Martin and Mills are our best. Not counting Franklin who is injured. IMO Franklin would be #1, given Bond's gone to the ICL.

I used to loathe Franklin (a bit too reliant on swing at times) but his batting would have been more than useful this series.

He's still just 27 despite feeling like he's been around for a long time.

 

[Prince EWS]

if you go by how many wickets taken

Well yeah, but that's obviously quite a dire way to go. Styris is obviously not a better bowler than Southee, for example.

Vettori has been a mainstay in the team, has had no injuries and usually gets quite a lot of overs - that's why he's taken more wickets than the rest. I'm not a Vettori-hater by any stretch of the imagination; I wouldn't question his place in the team or as captain as some people have done and I wouldn't suggest that Patel is a better bowler. He is over-rated by many though - not so much on this forum, but by people I talk to, especially in Australia.

NZ's most accomplished bowler? NZ's most experienced bowler? Sure, he can have those. But he's not NZ's best bowler in Tests AFAIC - Franklin for one definitely overshadows him. It's more questionable with Martin and Mills but I'd still back them to be more effective than Vettori as a whole taking into account the pitches produced in Test cricket recently.

 

[Flem274*]

A freak of nature.

Why Bondy? Why?

Still wish we'd swapped most of his back and knees for titanium. Then he might last longer.