**Official** England in New Zealand

[Flem274*]

Agree to disagree. If you're good enough, you're old enough. Fleming got the captaincy at 23.

And as a result didn't serve out his batting apprenticeship.

I can see what both of you are saying. IMO we should be careful but at the same time show faith. Debut say 1 or two at a time. First up I'd go with Fulton and Ryder who have both played international cricket before.

 

[NZTailender]

Not true had a bowlers and fielders done their job and finished England off in both the first and second innings at Wellington, then we may well have won the match and taken the series out then and there. It's only really in this match that our batting has completely flopped in proper batting conditions, and even that has been aided by the absence of Oram. And as for Bell and Sinclair, I know they need to be replaced, but I just don't see throwing young first class players with mixed records into the team in an extremely challenging environment, and hoping one or two will stick as a proper solution. They'll just get a lovely string of single figure scores and disappear with their confidence and technique shattered.

Agreed with the above. One wonders why two experienced FC campaigners with decent records in Broom and Nicol aren't being suggested?

Given Southee's genuine promise and Taylor's improvement, I'd be hoping for something like this in England:

Cumming
How
Sinclair/Fulton
Broom
Taylor
Oram
McCullum+
Vettori
Mills
Southee
Martin

Sinclair there because he's experienced and firmly believe he would have a good time over there, given the chance. If not, Nicol comes in, and we'd have a very inexperienced middle order.


Edit: Completely forgot about Fulton.

 

[Flem274*]

What are Broom and Nicols recors like? I've seen their List A ones but can't remember their FC ones.

 

[NZTailender]

36 and 35.7 respectively IIRC.

 

[Leslie1]

I don't like Cumming. A good player at domestics but like Sinclair, found wanting at the top level. Cue in Steyn.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't like Cumming. A good player at domestics but like Sinclair, found wanting at the top level. Cue in Steyn.

Cumming isn't a good player at domestic level though.

 

[Leslie1]

but am I the only one who thinks that new young players should be debuted at home and in familiar conditions so as to ease them into the step up in quality?

I lamented the fact that we didn't blood these guys when we were playing Bangladesh. The selection panel should have been more forthright about Sinclair and Bell's shortcomings.

 

[Flem274*]

I don't like Cumming.

Not getting much action then I take it?

 

[NZTailender]

Cumming isn't a good player at domestic level though.

Dead to me.

 

[Prince EWS]

Dead to me.

TBH I'd probably pick him anyway - I think he has much more chance of succeeding than Bell. But it's not like he's a prolific FC scorer averaging 50+ demanding selection, so I don't get the Sinclair comparison.

If anything, he's picked for the opposite reasons as Sinclair.. he only does "okay" at First Class level, but he's a mentally strong player who is also reasonably consistent.

 

[Leslie1]

How long must we persist with the Australian mentality that we need 30+ aged journeymen, when we have so much talent underneath them. Sometimes we think so much about how fragile it is that these young guys would handle it, that we forget, if you have the techniques, you should be there. Age should never, ever be a barrier. It's also a mute point when there is such a big support staff in that Black Caps' changing room, that bringing youngsters through who can play their natural game like a Ross Taylor, should not do any worse than technique deficient players like Cumming, Papps, Sinclair, Bell... who grew up playing on dodgy pitches, hence they have no patience with scoring, and lack the necessary techniques on good wickets... and only since 2000 did we start producing flat tracks for the youngsters to come through with solid techniques.

 

[NZTailender]

How many young domestic openers are bashing the door down, though? Papps did it for a bit, got picked and was incredibly poor - albeit against a bogey team. I wouldn't be against him returning for the Black Caps, but not for a while yet.

I have firm belief in Sinclair and Cumming.

 

[Leslie1]

How many young domestic openers are bashing the door down, though? Papps did it for a bit, got picked and was incredibly poor - albeit against a bogey team. I wouldn't be against him returning for the Black Caps, but not for a while yet.

I have firm belief in Sinclair and Cumming.

Vettori and Braces seem to have this belief that batting positions is just a number. Just go out and bat.

B. J. Watling
Greg Todd
Greg Hay
Daniel Flynn
M. Guptill
Corey Anderson

To name but a few top names out there.

Be daring you sods, we won't blame you selectors for trying something fresh. The time is nigh for us to try something different, stop being so conservative.

I repeat, if they have the techniques, they are good enough. Fleming retiring and so many other seniors gone, time is right to rebuild. Anyone of these guys come off right, and you have a platform to work with...

You already have a platform selectors.

Fill in this lineup sheet:

1.How
2.
3.
4.Taylor
5.
6.Oram
7.McCullum
8.Vettori
9.Southee or Patel or Mason or Gillespie
10. Mills
11. Martin

You just need to search for that number 3 and trial them in the practise matches AT least. BRING all these young potentials and trial them all in the practise matches. No harm done there.

 

[Halfpast_Yellow]

AWTA.

The IPL window is the perfect oppourtunity to play all these fresh players in England. When the 5 return, pick the ones that look like they'll do the job. With Oram and Taylor out that's 5 batting spots to be filled against the counties until they arrive late, and then drop the two with the least potential guilt free.

 

[Flem274*]

Vettori and Braces seem to have this belief that batting positions is just a number. Just go out and bat.

B. J. Watling
Greg Todd
Greg Hay
Daniel Flynn
M. Guptill
Corey Anderson

To name but a few top names out there.

Be daring you sods, we won't blame you selectors for trying something fresh. The time is nigh for us to try something different, stop being so conservative.

I repeat, if they have the techniques, they are good enough. Fleming retiring and so many other seniors gone, time is right to rebuild. Anyone of these guys come off right, and you have a platform to work with...

You already have a platform selectors.

Fill in this lineup sheet:

1.How
2.
3.
4.Taylor
5.
6.Oram
7.McCullum
8.Vettori
9.Southee or Patel or Mason or Gillespie
10. Mills
11. Martin

You just need to search for that number 3 and trial them in the practise matches AT least. BRING all these young potentials and trial them all in the practise matches. No harm done there.

I see the point but we need a mixture of youth and experience. Also think we should hammer home the importance of technique after the absolute failure of Bell. Sinclair, Cumming and Papps due to poor technique.

My two debutants for Lords would be chosen out of who does best against the counties (though middle order players won't be opening). If it was from scratch I'd choose:

How
Watling/McIntosh/someone please God
Fulton
Taylor
Ryder (if unfit Broom or Hay)
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin (Southee is Franklin is unfit)
Mills
Martin

Side selects itself really. Barring the openers they are clearly the best though you could make a good case for Southee.

BTW I don't want Corey Anderson anywhere near an NZ side ATM. He doesn't have the record, he is way too young and he isn't Sachin Tendulkar-esque with the bat. I'll be pretty pissed if he debuts so soon.

 

[Bahnz]

Vettori and Braces seem to have this belief that batting positions is just a number. Just go out and bat.

B. J. Watling
Greg Todd
Greg Hay
Daniel Flynn
M. Guptill
Corey Anderson

To name but a few top names out there.

Be daring you sods, we won't blame you selectors for trying something fresh. The time is nigh for us to try something different, stop being so conservative.

I repeat, if they have the techniques, they are good enough. Fleming retiring and so many other seniors gone, time is right to rebuild. Anyone of these guys come off right, and you have a platform to work with...

You already have a platform selectors.

Fill in this lineup sheet:

1.How
2.
3.
4.Taylor
5.
6.Oram
7.McCullum
8.Vettori
9.Southee or Patel or Mason or Gillespie
10. Mills
11. Martin

You just need to search for that number 3 and trial them in the practise matches AT least. BRING all these young potentials and trial them all in the practise matches. No harm done there.

Ummm...how many of those youngsters have you actually seen bat? Ever had any opportunity to go into any deep analysis of their playing style. Do you know for certain that they've got the technique that the old fella's don't? The pitches in New Zealand really aren't that much flatter than they were 5 or 10 years ago. International pitches are, but that's only because of the big stink the Indian's pulled in 2002/03. Domestic and club pitches are more or less the same as they've always been. And lets be honest, if these younger players are so much more talented and technically sound, then how come rubbish like Michael Papps and Matthew Bell are still scoring twice as much as their younger competitors?

The truth is, we will blame the selectors for trying something different. Remember when we were in South Africa a few months ago. Every kiwi poster on this forum lambasted the selectors for going for Taylor ahead of the likes of Sinclair. As for practice games, they'll get plenty on the 'A' tours coming up.

 

[Flem274*]

Ummm...how many of those youngsters have you actually seen bat? Ever had any opportunity to go into any deep analysis of their playing style. Do you know for certain that they've got the technique that the old fella's don't? The pitches in New Zealand really aren't that much flatter than they were 5 or 10 years ago. International pitches are, but that's only because of the big stink the Indian's pulled in 2002/03. Domestic and club pitches are more or less the same as they've always been.

The truth is, we will blame the selectors for trying something different. Remember when we were in South Africa a few months ago. Every kiwi poster on this forum lambasted the selectors for going for Taylor ahead of the likes of Sinclair. As for practice games, they'll get plenty on the 'A' tours coming up.

Out of interest, what do you reckon?

Personally seen Anderson, Hay, Todd, Flynn and Guptill. Todds tendency to play around the front pad is dodgy but thats the only worry I've spotted thus far. I saw a limited overs game here where in Hays short innings he seemed to move his feet quite well but my angle to watch wasn't great and Sinclair was at the other end and his technique was awful. I'd like to see all bar Todd and Anderson some more before making judgement.

 

[Leslie1]

The truth is, we will blame the selectors for trying something different. Remember when we were in South Africa a few months ago. Every kiwi poster on this forum lambasted the selectors for going for Taylor ahead of the likes of Sinclair. As for practice games, they'll get plenty on the 'A' tours coming up.

That is purely Hadlee's call I heard from the rumors. The only selector out of Dion Nash, Glenn Turner and Braces (covener) showing any enterprise. He's also the ONLY one showing faith in Southee getting picked.

But hello. Look at Taylor after this series. To be honest, do you see us winning any of the tests over there with Sinclair, Bell, Papps and Cummings ANYWAY?

What's the difference? Going through the baptism of fire to find that gem of a player like how we scored Fleming is worth the losses that's inevitable to start with.

 

[Craig]

Congratulations Mathew Sinclair on playing Test cricket for New Zealand, you won't be doing that anymore. Does Fleming now finish with an average of over 40?

 

[Flem274*]

Congratulations Mathew Sinclair on playing Test cricket for New Zealand, you won't be doing that anymore. Does Fleming now finish with an average of over 40?

Yup

Just sad he didn't reach his full potential and average 45+ which he would have averaged had he converted around half his 50s into hundreds. Think thats what the figure was in an interview a few weeks ago.