KiWiNiNjA
International Coach
Bollocks.....is all I can say to that
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**Official** England in New Zealand
- Thread starter James
- Start date
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
No, you build a side around a few core players who are clearly a cut above the rest. Bell, Pietersen and Collingwood are such players for England. They've gone past the "being trialled" period that the likes of Bopara and Mustard, and even Cook and Shah are going through. Without these base players, things begin losing focus in the general scheme of the side. Bell IS a class player and should be perservered with. Dropping him won't help because then he won't overcome any faults he has with his game. It's not like he's in his mid-30's and is under pressure from younger players.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Who is this man blowing to keep getting selected?
Perm
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
In his last 11 games he's averaging less than 20. I think he should be placed under some pressure to start performing, otherwise somebody will take his spot. Luke Wright would average about the same, do it quicker, and offer an option with the ball. Same with Bopara.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Obviously if you don't perform for a long while you should be dropped, but I'd be more concerned if he's done nothing in the ODI arena at the end of his next series. Give him a bit longer to get back in form.
Based on what? He has hardly set the world on fire in T20's where he has to be attacking, so what makes you think he'll do the job in ODI's? Having Shah at 3 would be a better option than using Wright, if you were to drop Bell.
Nate
You'll Never Walk Alone
Was seriously priveliged (sp) to watch that batting display by New Zealand in it's entireity. England were pathetic in the field, but the Kiwis made their own luck really. Highest partnership ever against England and unbeaten too. Was just so entertaining to watch.
Don't know why Australians don't like New Zealanders. Always been a fan. Even moreso when they're trouncing England.
Have to feel for Sidebottom though. (
) Couldn't have bowled much better.But yeah... TAKE THAT ENGLAND! FAT BOY GONNA GET YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111!!111!11!!!!!!
Flem274*
123/5
Why thank you Heath, perhaps I could find a way to include that photo in the presentation?
Goughy
Hall of Fame Member
haha, its a good job my interest in England ODIs was killed a long time ago. Good to see nothing changes though
You pick **** the team will play ****.
Though in fairness there appears to be a lack of talent in the English OD domestic game but still that isnt close to the best XI.
You pick **** the team will play ****.
Though in fairness there appears to be a lack of talent in the English OD domestic game but still that isnt close to the best XI.
Neil Pickup
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Thankfully I went to bed when it started to rain. That's all I have to say. That and ****.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Impressive. But...I'm still not comfortable with this opening pair. Sure when they both come off, as they did yesterday, then it can be truly devastating. But if we were to lose a couple of early wickets, I don't really trust either of these two to be able to reign in their naturally attacking games, and do a bit of grafting. I still think one of the two should move down to 6, and have How as the other opener. That would also mean Taylor could bat at his natural position of 3, and Fulton wouldn't be wasted at 6. Still time will tell, and I definately agree that both players have earnt the right to stay in the opening spots for a while.
western_warrior
Cricket Spectator
[Don't know why Australians don't like New Zealanders. Always been a fan. Even moreso when they're trouncing England.
we dont hate kiwis mate......we just cant stand loosiong to them. emagine being beaten up by your younger brother. is there a more shameful feeling? your right about them thrashing england though.. makes me stand up and cheer!!!!
YOOO HOOO!! go you black caps__ and lock your sheep up...that sidebottom lookes a bit edgy to me. with that kind of haircut he seems to be trying to imitate one, perhaps to infiltrate a flock or two while he's there.
we dont hate kiwis mate......we just cant stand loosiong to them. emagine being beaten up by your younger brother. is there a more shameful feeling? your right about them thrashing england though.. makes me stand up and cheer!!!!
YOOO HOOO!! go you black caps__ and lock your sheep up...that sidebottom lookes a bit edgy to me. with that kind of haircut he seems to be trying to imitate one, perhaps to infiltrate a flock or two while he's there.
thomasson
Cricket Spectator
Hello Everybody! I think England will bounce back from this two crashing defeats, because they are a talented side with some very good players. But they have to go back to the basics and improve the thinking as Geff Boycott said in the BBC interview. After the rain break everything fell apart, Pietersen played so beautifully straight down the ground and he suddenly started to play across the line. After the KP wicket it was a shocking, shocking performance with the needless runouts. When a team suffer so heavely from run-outs, it is clear that the mental state of the players are below average.
Bopara still have a lot to learn, i would replace him with Masceranhas, who should have played in this series form the start. His bowling is very useful in limited overs cricket(good control) and every team needs a six hitter down the order. Swann was also largely disappointing in the first two matches and should be replaced by Luke Wright. Mustard wicketkeeping is good(except the costly dropped catch), but he needs to play bigger innings with the bat, because pretty 20s, 30s are not good enough. Bell, Shah, Pietersen, Collingwood too needs a good innings, becasuse England cannot afford another batting collapse. I honestly think if they can win the next match, they have a good chance to win the series.
So hopefully England answer in the best way by beating New Zealand in the next match and i would love to see an another hundred from my favourite player: Alastair Cook.
Bopara still have a lot to learn, i would replace him with Masceranhas, who should have played in this series form the start. His bowling is very useful in limited overs cricket(good control) and every team needs a six hitter down the order. Swann was also largely disappointing in the first two matches and should be replaced by Luke Wright. Mustard wicketkeeping is good(except the costly dropped catch), but he needs to play bigger innings with the bat, because pretty 20s, 30s are not good enough. Bell, Shah, Pietersen, Collingwood too needs a good innings, becasuse England cannot afford another batting collapse. I honestly think if they can win the next match, they have a good chance to win the series.
So hopefully England answer in the best way by beating New Zealand in the next match and i would love to see an another hundred from my favourite player: Alastair Cook.
stumpski
International Captain
Wow, a poster from Hungary - welcome. I don't know if that's a forum first, we have a few in places not normally associated with cricket.
Just got the highlights on now (don't know why, really, I saw enough this morning). Anyone else think three hours is too long? Especially for this match, but they practically have to show every run. Two would have been plenty.
Just got the highlights on now (don't know why, really, I saw enough this morning). Anyone else think three hours is too long? Especially for this match, but they practically have to show every run. Two would have been plenty.
Chubb
International Regular
Sziasztok! Unicum! Margitsziget!
Exhausted my three words in Hungarian there.
I can't believe England have played so badly in this series, it is bizarre. No department of their game has been up to scratch. I am glad New Zealand are winning and I believe there is not much of a gap between the two sides (if there is one at all) but really they might as well have played Bangladesh in the last two ODIs, England have been so poor. They are going to have to buck their ideas up right now.
I haven't seen Jesse Ryder play before and he looks really good, quite similar to other Kiwi batsmen in that he is mainly an eye player, but what an eye he has. He should definately play in the test side, maybe at the expense of Fulton. Then we will see if his technique can stand up to it.
Ross Taylor concerns me because as a lot of people have highlighted, he continually plays across the line far too often. He could really use some time in County Cricket, however, he has a two-match ban for excessive sledging in the Norfolk League to serve before he could play in England (one of my housemates played with him a few years back, Gareth Hopkins has also played at the club). However in these two young players we have some great talent to refine. Bracewell isn't the person to do it, but maybe John Wright could.
Exhausted my three words in Hungarian there.
I can't believe England have played so badly in this series, it is bizarre. No department of their game has been up to scratch. I am glad New Zealand are winning and I believe there is not much of a gap between the two sides (if there is one at all) but really they might as well have played Bangladesh in the last two ODIs, England have been so poor. They are going to have to buck their ideas up right now.
I haven't seen Jesse Ryder play before and he looks really good, quite similar to other Kiwi batsmen in that he is mainly an eye player, but what an eye he has. He should definately play in the test side, maybe at the expense of Fulton. Then we will see if his technique can stand up to it.
Ross Taylor concerns me because as a lot of people have highlighted, he continually plays across the line far too often. He could really use some time in County Cricket, however, he has a two-match ban for excessive sledging in the Norfolk League to serve before he could play in England (one of my housemates played with him a few years back, Gareth Hopkins has also played at the club). However in these two young players we have some great talent to refine. Bracewell isn't the person to do it, but maybe John Wright could.
Dick Rockett
International Vice-Captain
I hope so too, although my criticism of his selection still stands. I'm so glad he's been successful for NZ so far - and in such spectacular fashion too - but there really was nothing to justify his selection bar oodles of natural talent, and that really isn't enough. The thing is that the NZ selectors have been taking this speculative and hopeful approach for far too long, ruining the careers of many promising players in the process. As much as I loved Ryder's batting last night, and as much as I want him to succeed, I can only conclude that his form thus far will encourage the selection panel to continue with a policy that has been pretty much disastrous 99% of the time.
Goughy
Hall of Fame Member
CorrectedHello Everybody! I think England will bounce back from this two crashing defeats, because they are a talented side with a good player.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Well, time to make the comeback to this thread...
Firstly, couldn't really agree more with this post:
And surprised, TSTL.
Thirdly, haha at those who thought England were odds-on faves for the ODIs because of the Twenty20s. I don't really know what happened in them - I think we won them both didn't we? - but you have to love (as well as cringe at) the impulsiveness of those both on the side of the Tasman and the side of the Atlantic who go and base ODI predictions on Twenty20s.
Fourthly, a few thoughts about England selection...
Agree with those saying Bopara at seven is stupid. Not entirely convinced he'd do much at three either, but he'd certainly have a damn sight more chance than he does at seven. Just before his case, though, we had Dalrymple, and any number before then too, so that's not terribly surprising. Needs to be dropped for mine, but quite why anyone would want to replace him (a batsman who bowls a little bit) with Mascarenhas (a bowler who can sometimes slog a few) is beyond me. Mascarenhas should play, but at the expense of a bowler. You pick Mascarenhas with batting in mind, you're going to be rudely awakened, as we were with another fine bowler whose batting skill ended-up working against him, Mark Ealham.
Cook has to play the whole series for mine, ideally with Mustard too. Mustard should never have been near the side, but hopefully he'll get this series, fail and never be seen again, and hopefully the same thing'll happen to the old Mustard, Matthew Prior, as it happened to the previous Mustard\Prior, Geraint Jones. Wright I don't ever see being much of a success in ODIs, he's so far had half a decent season in domestic cricket. Need to do rather more than that to convince me. Should never be anywhere near the squad, and the notion of him playing ahead of Cook is laughable. Which probably means it'll happen before this series is out.
If Cook still doesn't do well in this series he has to go, though, and not get brought back unless he does some serious improvement at domestic OD cricket. I'm so sick of seeing players like him, Strauss, Vaughan, and countless others, who were good Test players being in-and-out and crap for ages at ODIs. But I don't see it stopping any time soon, it's been going-on ever since I started watching the game.
Still don't see any of Bell, Collingwood or Shah ever being any great shakes at ODIs, I'll see what Collingwood does for the rest of this series then post my thoughts on him in a separate thread. Bell obviously has to play as of now, as does Shah, but as long as they continue to get picked we're never going to have a batting side of any great note.
I can see this series being a huge step backwards for Swann. Without bowling remotely badly, he's been absolutely smashed in a handful of overs. Circumstances haven't helped, but is that likely to change? Would prefer Mascarenhas instead of him currently, though I see both as being integral in WC2011. Somerset: Swann >>>>>>> MSP in the OD game.
The running has been abysmal, but amazed anyone blamed Shah for the Collingwood instance in the First ODI. Collingwood had no business setting-off before the ball had passed the infield, which it hadn't. The rest of the time, though, it's hardly been that surprising, and had said batsmen not been run-out I can't shake the feeling they'd have found proper ways to get out before long anyway.
Fifthly, ITSTL to hear about this Millmow character. Evidently the latest hate-figure to come out of New Zealand. Will look forward to the Phlegms, Davises et al bashing throughout this series.
Sixthly, rather surprising to see Ryder and McCullum score so well in the Second ODI, even if they were both dropped in single-figures. Crap bowling, of course, but surely a bit better than the sort of stuff Ryder's struggled against in domestic cricket. It truly was alarming to come accross him for the first time though - I've honestly never seen someone so young look so old.
FFS, I simply cannot believe O'Brien gets picked again. This is beyond ludicrous. Even Mustard is in danger of scoring if he's in the NZ side. Mind, Martin's bowled OK in the 2 games so far... something I'd thought not terribly far short of impossible. Let's hope Patel plays the last 2 games, not O'Brien. Been really impressed, and delighted too, with Oram's recent bowling form. To send down 7 overs for 12, mostly in a game that was effectively a 20-over one, is a magnificent feat.
Have to say I'm a little surprised at the New Zealand buoyance too - never read a tour-thread full of Kiwis before now. Await your possible reactions in the Test-matches with interest.
Finally, congratulations if you read all of this without falling asleep.
Firstly, couldn't really agree more with this post:
Secondly, good to see Tim, KiWi and Edmunds back.
And surprised, TSTL.Thirdly, haha at those who thought England were odds-on faves for the ODIs because of the Twenty20s. I don't really know what happened in them - I think we won them both didn't we? - but you have to love (as well as cringe at) the impulsiveness of those both on the side of the Tasman and the side of the Atlantic who go and base ODI predictions on Twenty20s.
Fourthly, a few thoughts about England selection...
Agree with those saying Bopara at seven is stupid. Not entirely convinced he'd do much at three either, but he'd certainly have a damn sight more chance than he does at seven. Just before his case, though, we had Dalrymple, and any number before then too, so that's not terribly surprising. Needs to be dropped for mine, but quite why anyone would want to replace him (a batsman who bowls a little bit) with Mascarenhas (a bowler who can sometimes slog a few) is beyond me. Mascarenhas should play, but at the expense of a bowler. You pick Mascarenhas with batting in mind, you're going to be rudely awakened, as we were with another fine bowler whose batting skill ended-up working against him, Mark Ealham.
Cook has to play the whole series for mine, ideally with Mustard too. Mustard should never have been near the side, but hopefully he'll get this series, fail and never be seen again, and hopefully the same thing'll happen to the old Mustard, Matthew Prior, as it happened to the previous Mustard\Prior, Geraint Jones. Wright I don't ever see being much of a success in ODIs, he's so far had half a decent season in domestic cricket. Need to do rather more than that to convince me. Should never be anywhere near the squad, and the notion of him playing ahead of Cook is laughable. Which probably means it'll happen before this series is out.
If Cook still doesn't do well in this series he has to go, though, and not get brought back unless he does some serious improvement at domestic OD cricket. I'm so sick of seeing players like him, Strauss, Vaughan, and countless others, who were good Test players being in-and-out and crap for ages at ODIs. But I don't see it stopping any time soon, it's been going-on ever since I started watching the game.
Still don't see any of Bell, Collingwood or Shah ever being any great shakes at ODIs, I'll see what Collingwood does for the rest of this series then post my thoughts on him in a separate thread. Bell obviously has to play as of now, as does Shah, but as long as they continue to get picked we're never going to have a batting side of any great note.
I can see this series being a huge step backwards for Swann. Without bowling remotely badly, he's been absolutely smashed in a handful of overs. Circumstances haven't helped, but is that likely to change? Would prefer Mascarenhas instead of him currently, though I see both as being integral in WC2011. Somerset: Swann >>>>>>> MSP in the OD game.
The running has been abysmal, but amazed anyone blamed Shah for the Collingwood instance in the First ODI. Collingwood had no business setting-off before the ball had passed the infield, which it hadn't. The rest of the time, though, it's hardly been that surprising, and had said batsmen not been run-out I can't shake the feeling they'd have found proper ways to get out before long anyway.
Fifthly, ITSTL to hear about this Millmow character. Evidently the latest hate-figure to come out of New Zealand. Will look forward to the Phlegms, Davises et al bashing throughout this series.
Sixthly, rather surprising to see Ryder and McCullum score so well in the Second ODI, even if they were both dropped in single-figures. Crap bowling, of course, but surely a bit better than the sort of stuff Ryder's struggled against in domestic cricket. It truly was alarming to come accross him for the first time though - I've honestly never seen someone so young look so old.
FFS, I simply cannot believe O'Brien gets picked again. This is beyond ludicrous. Even Mustard is in danger of scoring if he's in the NZ side. Mind, Martin's bowled OK in the 2 games so far... something I'd thought not terribly far short of impossible. Let's hope Patel plays the last 2 games, not O'Brien. Been really impressed, and delighted too, with Oram's recent bowling form. To send down 7 overs for 12, mostly in a game that was effectively a 20-over one, is a magnificent feat.
Have to say I'm a little surprised at the New Zealand buoyance too - never read a tour-thread full of Kiwis before now. Await your possible reactions in the Test-matches with interest.
Finally, congratulations if you read all of this without falling asleep.