Are Kolpak players hurting English cricket?

[James]

Something that I've been wondering about the past few weeks, and reading today that Justin Kemp has been signed as a Kolpak player by Kent prompted me to create this thread.

Is English domestic cricket going down the road of the English Football Premiership where in a few years the bulk of players will be from overseas and aren't eligible for English selection?

It already appears to be hurting English cricket as an example with Chris Taylor saying on his Cricket Web Column:

My second season at Derbyshire didn't go as well. A combination of a bad back injury and the signing of three Kolpak batsmen meant I wasn't picked in the team (after I had been player of the year only the year before), so I decided to leave the club.

Are Kolpak players seriously hurting the English game? What does the future hold for the English game?

 

[sideshowtim]

I don't think so. It means that the duds will miss out in favour of better Kolpak players, while the better English players will still be picked and will be playing their cricket against the Kolpak players which generally means a higher standard of competition. I actually think it's good for English cricket. They want quality players not a quantity of them.

 

[James]

Without wanting to talk Chris Taylor up too much, I fail to see how someone can be Player of the Year and then fail to gain selection the year after, especially when it appears to mainly be down to the signing of three Kolpak batsmen.

How can that be good for the English game?

 

[sideshowtim]

Without wanting to talk Chris Taylor up too much, I fail to see how someone can be Player of the Year and then fail to gain selection the year after, especially when it appears to mainly be down to the signing of three Kolpak batsmen.

How can that be good for the English game?

He's a bloody average player though isn't he? He was never going to make the England team and a better Kolpak batsman in his place at the County side means a higher standard of competition for the other English players who are of better quality.

 

[Langeveldt]

But quite a few of these Kolpak players don't seem to be of a particularly high standard.. I know Somerset have got a guy called Kieswetter in the side who I don't think would particularly raise the bar, and he's keeping any locals from behind the stumps whilst he's here.. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't get in a franchise side back home tbh

 

[sideshowtim]

But quite a few of these Kolpak players don't seem to be of a particularly high standard.. I know Somerset have got a guy called Kieswetter in the side who I don't think would particularly raise the bar, and he's keeping any locals from behind the stumps whilst he's here.. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't get in a franchise side back home tbh

If there were any better locals in the squad or in the county they'd take his place though.

 

[Langeveldt]

If there were any better locals in the squad or in the county they'd take his place though.

Not sure, I know Kolpaks are cheaper, and he's taken the place of Carl Gazzard, who, while no awesome shakes as a player, was definitely no worse.. Young players are leaving because they know they are in with less of a chance to develop when you can just shove a few Kolpaks in..

 

[Goughy]

Something that I've been wondering about the past few weeks, and reading today that Justin Kemp has been signed as a Kolpak player by Kent prompted me to create this thread.

As reported here by myself a number of months ago

On the topic, I dont think its as simple as "Are Kolpaks Bad?"

As players there are good Kolpaks and and bad ones, as there are well run Counties and badly run Counties.

Counties have been making bad personel decisions well before Kolpaks hit the scene. This is just another way poor administration manifests itself.

Cant argue with a guy like Kemp. He is an experienced and strong performer that will be a benfit to his County.

An argument may be made about the lesser players taking spots but maybe that will help the long-term malaise of English cricket which has been the lack of ambition shown by young County pros who think they have made it once they are on the scene.

Maybe the influx of ambitious and determined second tier Kolpaks will shake things up and force the young County players to step up and work harder on their games. Something that as a group they have tradionally been criticised for lacking once the contract and car are received.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think they do. I agree with SST that the absolute cream should always rise, but arguably even their development can be stiffled. I mean, if you're a coach your first duty is to your own team; development of talent for the national team is a secondary concern (especially when the chances are that if the guy's really good you won't have him for the majority of the season anyway). So playing a bloke in his 30s with a proven international track record against a 20-year-old tyro with bags of talent but no real form to be judged against is a no-brainer for me.

Moreover, it's arguably not just England it's hurting either, obviously SA are hit the hardest in this regards, but (if one extends the definition of "Kolpak" to also include those who qualify for EU passports) the loss of blokes like Hamish Marshall (Irish passport holder IIRC) has probably harmed NZ & ditto Pedro Collins (now a Kolpak at Surrey) for the Windies.

 

[James]

He's a bloody average player though isn't he? He was never going to make the England team and a better Kolpak batsman in his place at the County side means a higher standard of competition for the other English players who are of better quality.

Try not to be so rude, especially when he'll more than likely read this. Have you done any research to back up your comment anyway? He was the second highest run scorer behind Darren Lehmann at Derby in the limited overs in 2006.

Yorkshire are obviously showing a lot of faith in him in signing him to a three year contract too.

His goal is to be playing full international ODI cricket with England within the next 12 months.

Here's a good audio interview with him too.

 

[Langeveldt]

And the influx of foreigners into the English football game has doubtless raised the standard of the Premiership, but it's done absolutely diddly squat as far as the national team goes..

 

[vic_orthdox]

Kieswetter's an interesting one. He left pretty much as soon as he finished his U/19 stint. I guess SA have their fair share of talented wicket keepers.

 

[Langeveldt]

Try not to be so rude, especially when he'll more than likely read this. Have you done any research to back up your comment anyway? He was the second highest run scorer behind Darren Lehmann at Derby in the limited overs in 2006.

Yorkshire are obviously showing a lot of faith in him in signing him to a three year contract too.

His goal is to be playing full international ODI cricket with England within the next 12 months.

Here's a good audio interview with him too.

If he's trawling the forums, has he seen this?

 

[Langeveldt]

Kieswetter's an interesting one. He left pretty much as soon as he finished his U/19 stint. I guess SA have their fair share of talented wicket keepers.

There are at least half a dozen keepers above him in the country

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

He's a bloody average player though isn't he? He was never going to make the England team and a better Kolpak batsman in his place at the County side means a higher standard of competition for the other English players who are of better quality.

Haha, God I hope he reads this and responds. Lack of respect for top level cricket for mine.

 

[James]

I think they do. I agree with SST that the absolute cream should always rise, but arguably even their development can be stiffled. I mean, if you're a coach your first duty is to your own team; development of talent for the national team is a secondary concern (especially when the chances are that if the guy's really good you won't have him for the majority of the season anyway). So playing a bloke in his 30s with a proven international track record against a 20-year-old tyro with bags of talent but no real form to be judged against is a no-brainer for me.

I would disagree with that. My personal opinion is that the domestic structure in every country is there to benefit the national team and what ever it takes to help improve the national team should be done.

Perhaps there's a difference, but I recall in New Zealand, the national selectors asking the domestic sides to bat players in certain positions as they wanted to see how they went. Do the English selectors not have anything to do with the counties in that aspect?

Moreover, it's arguably not just England it's hurting either, obviously SA are hit the hardest in this regards, but (if one extends the definition of "Kolpak" to also include those who qualify for EU passports) the loss of blokes like Hamish Marshall (Irish passport holder IIRC) has probably harmed NZ & ditto Pedro Collins (now a Kolpak at Surrey) for the Windies.

I think it harms England and the countries where they're coming from, but I fail to see how it's good for England for a good up and coming bowler to be kept out of the side because Pedro Collins is playing for example as a Kolpak.

Take Tim Southee from NZ as an example. A 19 year-old with a lot of promise and even more so Sharma from India. If they were English, would they have even got a look in, in a English county team? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Goughy]

Perhaps there's a difference, but I recall in New Zealand, the national selectors asking the domestic sides to bat players in certain positions as they wanted to see how they went. Do the English selectors not have anything to do with the counties in that aspect?

There was the funny incident where Bell was released by England to play for Warwicks and then not selected.

The Counties are their own entity.

 

[James]

There was the funny incident where Bell was released by England to play for Warwicks and then not selected.

The Counties are their own entity.

Really - that surprises me.

Do you consider that a good thing out of interest?

 

[BoyBrumby]

I would disagree with that. My personal opinion is that the domestic structure in every country is there to benefit the national team and what ever it takes to help improve the national team should be done.

Perhaps there's a difference, but I recall in New Zealand, the national selectors asking the domestic sides to bat players in certain positions as they wanted to see how they went. Do the English selectors not have anything to do with the counties in that aspect?

The ECB has control over the centrally contracted players & can tell counties not to play them, but I'm pretty sure it can't require them to be played. Famously last year Ian Bell was released to Warwicks for a 20/20 quarter-final & then told his services weren't required...

EDIT: As Goughy said.

I think it harms England and the countries where they're coming from, but I fail to see how it's good for England for a good up and coming bowler to be kept out of the side because Pedro Collins is playing for example as a Kolpak.

Take Tim Southee from NZ as an example. A 19 year-old with a lot of promise and even more so Sharma from India. If they were English, would they have even got a look in, in a English county team? Somehow I doubt it.

Oh, I agree. I wasn't suggesting it was good for England; just that it's lose/lose.

 

[grecian]

And the influx of foreigners into the English football game has doubtless raised the standard of the Premiership, but it's done absolutely diddly squat as far as the national team goes..

Disagree with this statement whole-heartedly. Utter myth, I remember the days before the foreign influx and it just meant that players like Jeff Thomas and Carlton Palmer were the best English midfielders we had, players with no technical skill whatsoever, yet they were the best England had to offer. We still managed not to qualify for the World Cup in '74, '78 and '94.

With regards to cricket it is getting depressing all the journeyman who aren't remotely good enough to play for their countries anymore coming here for a last pay packet. Yet if it raises the standard of the lamentable county championship, I'm not that bothered. We have too many first-class teams anyway, so I really think if the English players are decent they should get a game somewhere.