Harbhajan reignites racism storm

[social]

is anybody not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that harbijan called symonds a monkey ? i am completely convinced after reading the script.So what if there was no audio of him saying it I mean people get convicted of murder without there being any visual footage

Given his prior history, the spontaneous and consistent reaction of the Australians, Harby's initial response to the accusation on the field and the constant changing of excuses, I think that it is extremely likely that he said it.

Unfortunately, there is an element of doubt because it wasnt caught on tape and, as such, there is a slim chance that 3 Australians misheard him

 

[sirdj]

would you feel comfortable going to th US and calling black Americans monkeys ? would you feel comfortable calling people in the west Indies monkeys ?

If the word monkey is not racist than the next time harbijan says it to symonds he should tell him to go and look in the mirror

I am not comfortable with the usage of ANY sledging.
And I don't need to tick off a list of racial slurs by going to America, West Indies or Timbuktu and using it against the first black guy I see and correct the list based on his or her reaction. Please talk sense or let someone else present a better argument.

 

[sirdj]

Ignorance is bliss

And there is nothing sadder than a closed mind.

 

[stephen]

Please read this even slower.......there is no way in hell a non-coloured view on racism as valid as a coloured persons because 99% of racism is directed from a non-coloured person to a coloured person. When that percentage reaches anywhere near 50-50 please feel free to give your opinion. Till then despite all your good intentions you have no clue as to what racism is.

You have your opinion, which you are entitled to, but you are incredibly wrong on this point. Just because you perceive racism to be a one way street does not make it so, and even if it is does not give you the right to have a "holier than thou" attitude about it or you are indeed commiting the same crime. Probably even a worse crime as you feel that you have the moral authority to support your racist views.

Racism is more than abuse. Racism is something which is a fundamental belief of the individual, which occasionally makes itself manifest in speech. Usually it is of a far more subtle form which makes itself manifest in the way in which others are treated. A large part of this comes from a belief that one has more of an entitlement than another based solely on an arbitrary set of rules (skin colour, religion, locality etc...). Your post is very nearly crossing into that area.

 

[Salamuddin]

I really don't understand why everyone is making such a big issue out of this.

A respected high court judge has heard whatever evidence there is and deemed Harbhajan
to be not guilty of the charge. Everyone deserves the presumptions of innocence until guilt is proven. Harbhajan is no different.


Whether or nor you believe Harbhajan said it or not is immaterial - its only a case of what you can prove beyond reasonable doubt.
The fact of the matter is the evidence against Harbhajan was sketchy at best. Essentially its the 3 Aussie players account v the Indian's.
I just can't see how anyone with even a shred of impartiality could have done anyone other than acquit Harby of the racism charge given that.

 

[sirdj]

It’s a racist term b/c it draws on a long history of comparing non-whites to animals; implying they are bestial in nature, and thus justifying treating them in discriminatory ways. Now as to whether being compared to an animal is offensive, I think not. We have a lot to learn from other species but we’re too blinded by our anthropocentric culture. Yeah, but that’s another argument…

Non-whites were not considered bestial, they were considered savages. The bestial slurs are relatively new.
Is calling someone a Neanderthal racist too?? what about Amoeba?? Earthworm??

 

[stephen]

I really don't understand why everyone is making such a big issue out of this.

A respected high court judge has heard whatever evidence there is and deemed Harbhajan
to be not guilty of the charge. Everyone deserves the presumptions of innocence until guilt is proven. Harbhajan is no different.


Whether or nor you believe Harbhajan said it or not is immaterial - its only a case of what you can prove beyond reasonable doubt.
The fact of the matter is the evidence against Harbhajan was sketchy at best. Essentially its the 3 Aussie players account v the Indian's.
I just can't see how anyone with even a shred of impartiality could have done anyone other than acquit Harby of the racism charge given that.

3 words - stump mic evidence.

 

[social]

And there is nothing sadder than a closed mind.

Aside from the literally hundreds of millions of people worldwide that recognise it as a racial slur, Symonds recognises it as such and Harbajhan knew it.

You'd have to be living under a rock for decades not to know that

 

[Salamuddin]

Given his prior history, the spontaneous and consistent reaction of the Australians, Harby's initial response to the accusation on the field and the constant changing of excuses, I think that it is extremely likely that he said it.

Unfortunately, there is an element of doubt because it wasnt caught on tape and, as such, there is a slim chance that 3 Australians misheard him

What prior history and what constant change of excuses ?

Do you seriously think if Harbhajan's story was a full of holes as your are implying, Judge John Hansen wouldn't have seen through that ?

 

[Salamuddin]

3 words - stump mic evidence.

What stump mic evidence ?

 

[Matt79]

The issue is that the BCCI bullied the other parties involved into agreeing to withdraw the allegation of racist abuse, so the appeal process didn't get the chance to decide the facts of that allegation one way or another. I'd have no problem if the appeal process had been done and the conclusion you described reached, but that wasn't even allowed to happen under threat of severe financial recriminations. Basically the BCCI has said that it won't be bound by any rules that it doesn't want to observe.

Plus the issue of cultural sensitivity apparently being a one-way street, as Burgey described.

 

[Matt79]

Non-whites were not considered bestial, they were considered savages. The bestial slurs are relatively new.
Is calling someone a Neanderthal racist too?? what about Amoeba?? Earthworm??

Never heard of social Darwinism, and how that was used to justify the mistreatment of black and coloured people? Because the basis of that was that they were closer to apes than humans. Hence the sensitivity to the term 'monkey'.

 

[Salamuddin]

The issue is that the BCCI bullied the other parties involved into agreeing to withdraw the allegation of racist abuse, so the appeal process didn't get the chance to decide the facts of that allegation one way or another. I'd have no problem if the appeal process had been done and the conclusion you described reached, but that wasn't even allowed to happen under threat of severe financial recriminations. Basically the BCCI has said that it won't be bound by any rules that it doesn't want to observe.

Plus the issue of cultural sensitivity apparently being a one-way street, as Burgey described.

What the BCCI did or didn't do is open to speculation but the point I'm making is there was never enough to convict Harbhajan and JUdge Hansen confirmed that .....

 

[Matt79]

Please read this even slower.......there is no way in hell a non-coloured view on racism as valid as a coloured persons because 99% of racism is directed from a non-coloured person to a coloured person. When that percentage reaches anywhere near 50-50 please feel free to give your opinion. Till then despite all your good intentions you have no clue as to what racism is.

What an incredibly ignorant narrow minded and wrong headed point of view. That attitude is in itself racist and a disgrace. Shan't bother talking to you on this issue anymore, and regret the time I've wasted doing so until this point. You're just as bad as the people you claim to object to.

 

[Matt79]

What the BCCI did or didn't do is open to speculation but the point I'm making is there was never enough to convict Harbhajan and JUdge Hansen confirmed that .....

Except he did convict him of the charge he was asked to adjudicate on in the end. He never had the opportunity to make a decision on the more serious charge as CA asked that the charge be downgraded.

 

[sirdj]

You have your opinion, which you are entitled to, but you are incredibly wrong on this point. Just because you perceive racism to be a one way street does not make it so, and even if it is does not give you the right to have a "holier than thou" attitude about it or you are indeed commiting the same crime. Probably even a worse crime as you feel that you have the moral authority to support your racist views.

It is not just my perception that coloured people bear the brunt of racial abuse, its a fact. It is an outright insult if you deny them that fact. Its you my dear friend who is walking a thin line. That is almost like saying there was no holocaust. Please correct yourself.

]Racism is more than abuse. Racism is something which is a fundamental belief of the individual, which occasionally makes itself manifest in speech. Usually it is of a far more subtle form which makes itself manifest in the way in which others are treated. A large part of this comes from a belief that one has more of an entitlement than another based solely on an arbitrary set of rules (skin colour, religion, locality etc...). Your post is very nearly crossing into that area.

Without quoting dictionaries.........here is the lay of the land.........unless you are a coloured person please do not dare go knocking their doors to tell them what racism is. You will be shown the boot.

 

[aussie_26]

I am not comfortable with the usage of ANY sledging.
And I don't need to tick off a list of racial slurs by going to America, West Indies or Timbuktu and using it against the first black guy I see and correct the list based on his or her reaction. Please talk sense or let someone else present a better argument.

good so you don't condone what harbijan did

 

[Salamuddin]

Except he did convict him of the charge he was asked to adjudicate on in the end. He never had the opportunity to make a decision on the more serious charge as CA asked that the charge be downgraded.

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ausvind/content/current/story/333986.html

Hansen admits there was not enough evidence to support Harbhajan being convicted under the racism clause section 3.3

 

[sirdj]

good so you don't condone what harbijan did

nope............if you have watertight evidence......please hang him by all means.....if you don't then leave him alone.

 

[pasag]

A respected high court judge has heard whatever evidence there is and deemed Harbhajan
to be not guilty of the charge. Everyone deserves the presumptions of innocence until guilt is proven. Harbhajan is no different.

What prior history and what constant change of excuses ?

Do you seriously think if Harbhajan's story was a full of holes as your are implying, Judge John Hansen wouldn't have seen through that ?

How can you use the appeal as a reason for Harbhajan being innocent when the charges were downgraded after CA put pressure on the Australian players to do so after having their arm twisted by the BCCI?

You know it's a great misfortune here that Harbhajan could have been found not guilty if proceedings were allowed to go on untampered with. However, now we'll never know because the BCCI and Indian team held the process to ransom and CA caved in.

If Harby would have been found not guilty because of lack of evidence I would have been more than happy - innocent till proven guilty and whatever the judge decides, that's final. And even though sometimes we find witnesses and circumstantial evidence is enough in most cases, I would have been satisfied that the charge wasn't proven beyond reasonable doubt in such a serious accusation.

However, the fact that India were prepared to boycott had the impartial judge not ruled for them and that in turn had an impact on proceedings is one of the biggest cricketing disgraces and leaves such a bad taste. I'm pretty disenfranchised with the whole thing atm.