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Teams selecting umpires

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
The alternative is to let him umpire in the next match when one team does not have confidence in his ability. I don't see that as a good outcome either.
hmmm that is true, but then again, him not umpiring this match pretty much rules him out of umpiring a match involving either of these teams again, and if this sort of thing continues there will be a huge list of various umpires who are ineligible to umpire certain matches simply because of the amount of whinging that has gone on.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
hmmm that is true, but then again, him not umpiring this match pretty much rules him out of umpiring a match involving either of these teams again, and if this sort of thing continues there will be a huge list of various umpires who are ineligible to umpire certain matches simply because of the amount of whinging that has gone on.
That's highly doubtful.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
There is a bit of a difference between teams selecting umpires and a team saying they have a problem with one particular umpire. Dont you think.

We may disagree on what should be the ICC's attitude towards such an issue but lest not use words like "teams selecting umpires' for that is jingoism using less than half truths.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Ask a group of people , in normal non-emotion charged times, "Is it okay for teams to appoint umpires for their matches ?" and then ask another similar group, " Should ICC be sympathetic to a team that has reservations about A particular umpire ?" and you may find that the response is radically different.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
So, India shouldnt complain about Bucknor, because presumably some other team didnt complain about Howell?

It would have been abominable if, say, there was an umpire who made many many mistakes, but coincidentally 80% of them favoring India. And then the opposing team tends to get him removed and BCCI threw it's weight around to stop that removal from happening.
That's an interesting reading of my post, not one supported by the actual words I used of course, but interesting nonetheless.

India have every right to complain about the standards of umpiring and there are mechanisms for so doing. I've absolutely no problem with them exercising this right & they'd probably be remiss if they didn't. What I really object to is twofold: it shows the ICC to be the BCCI's lapdog & it tacitly raises questions about Bucknor's probity.

Now the former is simply the real politik of the situation; India is cricket's golden goose and the ICC will go to lengths to keep her laying. I say this not out of anger but simply as a recognition of the way things are. It's distatsteful to see the tail wag the dog so obviously, but I'm sure it won't be the last time. The former is unfortunate is the extreme tho. Whatever one thinks of his ability as an umpire, Bucknor is a man who has stood in 120 tests and strikes me as an honourable man. He's now been effectively dismissed because....?
 

Engle

State Vice-Captain
He's now been effectively dismissed because....?
...if he officiated in the next Test and made an error against Ind, all hell would break loose. Not to say the same would not happen if the error went against Aus.

His shelf-life has passed it's due date
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Whatever one thinks of his ability as an umpire, Bucknor is a man who has stood in 120 tests and strikes me as an honourable man. He's now been effectively dismissed because....?
Because one team has lost faith in his ability to fairly adjudicate a Test match.

If we introduce things like referral system, we wouldn't have the problem of removing people like that. Even in their worst test match, their mistakes would go down by a huge amount because the most egregious errors would surely be overturned.
 
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BoyBrumby

Englishman
...if he officiated in the next Test and made an error against Ind, all hell would break loose. Not to say the same would not happen if the error went against Aus.

His shelf-life has passed it's due date
I'm not disputing that he is, actually. It's obvious he'd been past his best for some time (although I did actually think he'd improved a little of late, which seems a bit ironic in the context of recent events) and should've been quietly lead out to pasture for his own good a while ago.

It's not the decision I object to so much as the reasoning behind it. As Faaip observed earlier in the thread, if he was deemed good enough a week ago, one test shouldn't have been enough to change that.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
I'm not disputing that he is, actually. It's obvious he'd been past his best for some time (although I did actually think he'd improved a little of late, which seems a bit ironic in the context of recent events) and should've been quietly lead out to pasture for his own good a while ago.

It's not the decision I object to so much as the reasoning behind it. As Faaip observed earlier in the thread, if he was deemed good enough a week ago, one test shouldn't have been enough to change that.
But can one game not provide evidence of the incompetence of an umpire? Forget the accusations of bias - why should an umpire be considered good enough if he makes this many mistakes? Just because he didn't make as many last match, doesn't really mean anything if he completely lost it this match.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Because one team has lost faith in his ability to fairly adjudicate a Test match.
Which is just a polite way of calling his impartiality into question.

Bucknor deserved better IMHO, even if he was only allowed the fig-leaf of standing down of his own accord.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Which is just a polite way of calling his impartiality into question.

Bucknor deserved better IMHO, even if he was only allowed the fig-leaf of standing down of his own accord.
But they have. That's the truth. They can certainly lie and say we have faith in him and let him continue on, but what would be the point? That situation would not be any better, where one team is constantly afraid that one specific umpire may cost them a close match again. And then let's say one more mistake is made? You can't play the game if you can't trust the guy making the decisions. It's really that simple.

Whether its pure incompetence (which I think) or bias, its really irrelevent in terms of his ability. Plus, It's not new with him & India, this just pushed it over the edge. Indians have had a problems with him since the Parthiv Patel incident, then the Dravid incident, and now when he went completely off the boil here. They think he cannot umpire in Tests. You may disagree, but once that line is crossed with regards to trust, you can't just let him umpire anymore.

If you had a system of challenges, you might be able to, since they could easily challenge any calls they think have unfairly gone against them. But as long as we hold to this antiquated idea about the 'authority' of an umpire, there is only one logical course of action. You cannot have authority without respect and trust.
 
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BoyBrumby

Englishman
But can one game not provide evidence of the incompetence of an umpire? Forget the accusations of bias - why should an umpire be considered good enough if he makes this many mistakes? Just because he didn't make as many last match, doesn't really mean anything if he completely lost it this match.
If it was his first test, possibly. It wasn't tho, it was his 120th. To dismiss him as incompetent based on that is like saying Bradman was a bunny 'cos he scored zero in his last innings.

Moreover, how many mistakes did he actually make? 5? 6? A bad performance, certainly, but too shallow a sample for incompetence to stick. IMHO anyway.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
The participants are (almost) certainly wrong that the outcome was unfair, and as a result that's their problem IMO.
The outcome was unfair, the question is if it was due to simple errors and a one time thing, or if its something long term with an umpire.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
The outcome was unfair, the question is if it was due to simple errors and a one time thing, or if its something long term with an umpire.
The outcome was, but assuming that it was nothing deliberate on Bucknor's part, it's just as likely to be unfair on the Aussies next match.
 

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