Stuart Clark - World's Best BOWLER

[Pratters]

I think you misunderstand the point I raised. I was talking of Zaheer Khan only in the context of Chaminda Vaas, therefore one's performances are only important if the other's are also under consideration.

You are misunderstanding. I countered this post of yours by giving Zaheer's stats.

 

[BoyBrumby]

i think clark should be very happy with the mcgrath comparisons because imo, he isn't half of what mcgrath was. He just bowls around 130kph and is accurate. Having said that, being half of mcgrath is still pretty good. Labelling him amongst, if not, the world's best bowler is more a sad depiction of the quality of test match bowlers internationally, currently.

You've clearly pre-empted peoples' criticisms there. McGrath is arguably in the best three or four post-war seamers.

As an English fan I find it annoying in the extreme that now McGrath has finally minced off back to Narrowmine chuntering away to himself to hunt pigs & have his highlights touched up, Australia unearth his bowling doppleganger. & to rub further salt in the wound, it wasn't some hot-shot kid who'd had wraps on him since he could turn his arm over, but a 30-something with several years of honest, if not earth-shattering, toil behind him.

Two reason could be submitted

1. He was chose at the peak of his powers and is bowling at his best right now

2. Aussie FC cricket is at such a high standard atm that it is easier bowling in Test cricket

Fair points both for me. See also Mike Hussey.

However, since both Hussey & Clark have county championship experience, I'm claiming both as products of the English finishing school too tho.

 

[Richard]

You are misunderstanding. I countered this post of yours by giving Zaheer's stats.

Good grief, yes indeed. There's been so much Vaas-comparison in recent times I'd forgotten it hadn't started by that post.

 

[Richard]

As an English fan I find it annoying in the extreme that now McGrath has finally minced off back to Narrowmine chuntering away to himself to hunt pigs & have his highlights touched up, Australia unearth his bowling doppleganger. & to rub further salt in the wound, it wasn't some hot-shot kid who'd had wraps on him since he could turn his arm over, but a 30-something with several years of honest, if not earth-shattering, toil behind him.

Wouldn't it be worse still if it was some big-wraps kid? Isn't it less annoying (certainly is for me) when it's someone who took most Australians, as well as the rest of The World, by surprise? 'Cos then at least they don't get to say "see, we told you he was the next big thing".

What's more, Clark, being 32 is likely to be around for less time than some 24-year-old upstart would be. In the likely event that he destroys us in 2009, at least we'll then know it's possibly the 2nd and last time.

 

[Laurrz]

that is my only shame .... he's already 32

wil prolly be around for 4 years i reckon... a bit more if lucky.. damnnn

 

[BoyBrumby]

Wouldn't it be worse still if it was some big-wraps kid? Isn't it less annoying (certainly is for me) when it's someone who took most Australians, as well as the rest of The World, by surprise? 'Cos then at least they don't get to say "see, we told you he was the next big thing".

What's more, Clark, being 32 is likely to be around for less time than some 24-year-old upstart would be. In the likely event that he destroys us in 2009, at least we'll then know it's possibly the 2nd and last time.

My point was that if one largely unheralded toiler can take to test cricket like a duck to water, how many more Australians are there waiting to grab the chance? Is Bryce McGain Shane Warne incarnate or can the junior Hussey have a similar impact to his elder sibling?

At least with guys like Clarke (with an "e"), Ponting & Johnson you know they've been annointed by the great and good from an early age.

 

[Richard]

Look back to the cases of Trevor Hohns, Bob Holland, Bruce Yardley, or any number of other two-a-penny nothing spinners to be comforted on that score.

Strange people like Stuart Clark - or Colin Miller, to pick another more recent example - do happen from time to time. Though Miller was even more of a freak as he not only bloomed late, but totally changed style to cause said bloom. They've happened throughout history.

David Hussey's case is somewhat different to Stuart Clark's, really, as his performances have been notably superior in domestic cricket. If he were to suddenly appear on the international scene, he'd be more akin to an Adam Gilchrist.

I doubt McGain would be the next Warne, or anything close, incidentally. And even if he were, it'd be for no more than a year or two.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Was Dave and Mike's dad any good, out of interest?

 

[pasag]

No doubting Zaheer has radically improved lately. Wouldn't know it by reading stats of the computer mind, you'd actually have to watch the cricket.

Shocking, I know.

Anyways Pratyush and others spot on here for mine wrt Zaheer>Vaas. I have no idea who has been better statistically in recent times but it's pretty clear when watching them bowl which one is better. It's not really a slight on Vaas who is at the end of his career whilst Zaheer is right in the middle of it.

 

[Richard]

How many of Vaas' four Tests against Test-class teams did you watch last year to come to that conclusion, Zac?

Vaas is five years older than Zaheer Khan. There's nowhere near as much difference as some are suggesting.

 

[pasag]

The conclusion for me and I suspect many has come before the past few Tests (which I watched two and a half live from memory and a one and a half through highlights/ live commentary in response to your question). As much as I like Vaas and I really do, it's time to admit he's not what he used to be in either form of the game ( I will admit to ODIs influencing my thoughts on him as an overall bowler somewhat just a tad) and whilst he still merits his place in the side, I don't think he stands up to the much improved Zaheer. I think if you took reputation out of things the answer would be alot clearer. That said I hope Vaas proves me wrong and finishes his career with a bang, but I can't see it happening.

 

[archie mac]

Was Dave and Mike's dad any good, out of interest?

I have his new book but have not read it yet, if you really want to know I can look it up?

But if I remember correctly from interviews his father was not into cricket

 

[archie mac]

Fair points both for me. See also Mike Hussey.

However, since both Hussey & Clark have county championship experience, I'm claiming both as products of the English finishing school too tho.

I think that made a big difference especially in the case of Hussey

 

[Neil Pickup]

I have his new book but have not read it yet, if you really want to know I can look it up?

But if I remember correctly from interviews his father was not into cricket

I just want to cling on to my dreams of siring a boy who can actually deposit a leg stump long hop over the square leg boundary for six, insteading of finding himself deposited on his own arse attempting to do so.

 

[archie mac]

I just want to cling on to my dreams of siring a boy who can actually deposit a leg stump long hop over the square leg boundary for six, insteading of finding himself deposited on his own arse attempting to do so.

I don't see why not, Keith Miller had four sons and Bradman one and they never made it!

So it can work both ways

 

[Richard]

The conclusion for me and I suspect many has come before the past few Tests (which I watched two and a half live from memory and a one and a half through highlights/ live commentary in response to your question). As much as I like Vaas and I really do, it's time to admit he's not what he used to be in either form of the game ( I will admit to ODIs influencing my thoughts on him as an overall bowler somewhat just a tad) and whilst he still merits his place in the side, I don't think he stands up to the much improved Zaheer. I think if you took reputation out of things the answer would be alot clearer. That said I hope Vaas proves me wrong and finishes his career with a bang, but I can't see it happening.

See, ODIs don't influence my thinkings about Tests at all. If they do yours, that explains it to quite some degree.

I feel Vaas has spent half his career being "not what he used to be" and then the other half becoming "what he used to be" again. He's always veered from ineptitude to brilliance, more often than not with little or nothing in between. I never, ever think it wise to write him off, or feel any change is irreversible.

 

[pasag]

See, ODIs don't influence my thinkings about Tests at all. If they do yours, that explains it to quite some degree.

I feel Vaas has spent half his career being "not what he used to be" and then the other half becoming "what he used to be" again. He's always veered from ineptitude to brilliance, more often than not with little or nothing in between. I never, ever think it wise to write him off, or feel any change is irreversible.

I wouldn't say ODIs influence things in any major way with me, but they do have a slight impact on the way I look at things and which direction I'll look in and certain trends that occur. I think Tests and ODIs should largely be kept separate, but at times there can be some overlap. I wouldn't use Vaas's ODI form to say he's declining in Tests, but it could alert me to the fact that he's aging and declining as a sportsman as he gets older. Similarly, a player hitting the ball well in ODIs and is in good form in that format, I'd argue should be discussed in selection for Tests for the short Term (I value international form very highly and perhaps even as much as first class form, assuming the person isn't a proven failure in the other format for technical reasons).

 

[NZTailender]

Career wise, Vaas>>>Khan.

2007, Khan>>>Vaas.

 

[Richard]

I wouldn't say ODIs influence things in any major way with me, but they do have a slight impact on the way I look at things and which direction I'll look in and certain trends that occur. I think Tests and ODIs should largely be kept separate, but at times there can be some overlap. I wouldn't use Vaas's ODI form to say he's declining in Tests, but it could alert me to the fact that he's aging and declining as a sportsman as he gets older. Similarly, a player hitting the ball well in ODIs and is in good form in that format, I'd argue should be discussed in selection for Tests for the short Term (I value international form very highly and perhaps even as much as first class form, assuming the person isn't a proven failure in the other format for technical reasons).

Vaas is ageing - every one of us is ageing every second of every minute of every hour.

Is he declining? I don't think so. I've seen more than enough evidence of the typically up-and-down nature of his bowling to think it's simply that, continued, as it's been all his career.

What precisely is it you'd say has declined about him anyway? Speed? Surely not? He's been bowling the same pace (low 70s in mph, in the 120s in kph) for at least the last 3-and-a-half years now.

I can't think of anything else about him that might have declined TBH. There's little else about bowlers that tends to decline, other than fitness in some cases, and I don't think it really has in Vaas' case.

 

[Richard]

Career wise, Vaas>>>Khan.

2007, Khan>>>Vaas.

In terms of performances? Or in terms of how much they've played and how much opportunity they've had to look good?