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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Yea, but it probably was. He took it while recovering from an injury. An injury he came back suspiciously fast from.

Steroid use is the most overrated thing in sports, and I don't really care who takes it. But let's be real here. He probably took it to recover from injury, and it very likely could have helped save his career. Who knows how many wickets he got due to that? No way to know, and frankly, it doesn't really matter to me.
Frankly, a pretty reckless assessment. Instead of opening up a side debate, I'll just say I disagree strongly, and I don't know how a quicker-than-expected comeback deserves such a stigma. Especially, to such a transparent Cricketer such as Warne.
 
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silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Frankly, a pretty reckless assessment. Instead of opening up a side debate, I'll just say I disagree strongly, and I don't know how a quicker-than-expected comeback deserves such a stigma. Especially, to such a transparent Cricketer such as Warne.
Quicker than expected comeback while testing positive for a banned substance certainly deserves the stigma. Unless of course you think its just a coincidence (which, I suppose, is your right).
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Quicker than expected comeback while testing positive for a banned substance certainly deserves the stigma. Unless of course you think its just a coincidence (which, I suppose, is your right).
Because I believe him, and what he said on Parkinson, if you remember. He had a dislocated shoulder, it's not like he needed steroids to get over it. I also remember he was supposed to be rested in the initial stages of the WC and to play later.

It's not even about coincidence. You have no proof, neither are your reasons concrete.
 

Hooper

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
I have worked out who is the best bowler by doing some elimination i have discount Muralis and Warnes records against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

Murail took 163 wickets against both minnows
Warne took just 17 against both minnows

This does change things and it proves once and for all Warne is simply the greatest Spin Bowler or indeed the greatest bowler of all time

States

Shane Warne

Overs 6644
Runs 17560
Wickets 691
Average 25.41
RPO 2.64

Muttiah Muralitharan

Overs 5631
Runs 13098
Wickets 550
Average 23.81
RPO 2.34


But this shows that Warne Could have played more against the weaker nations but Australia decided to play bigger teams year in year out, while Muttiah Muralitharan got cheap wickets.

Shane Warne is Number 1
Add to the fact that Warne played on Aus pitches suited to pace bowling/batting. Whilst Murali plays on pitches conductive to spin day in and day out.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Steroid use is the most overrated thing in sports, and I don't really care who takes it.
Very silly statement if it's intended to be serious. It's not going to give someone great cricket skills, but in sports that are more reliant on speed and stamina it can turn a very average athlete into a great one.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
. You have no proof, neither are your reasons concrete.
And the first thing I said is that I don't. But he did take a masking agent, and he did recover from an injury suspiciously fast. What you choose to believe after that is up to you. I'll choose to believe that he is no different from the hundreds of others who were caught (from Marion Jones to Barry Bonds) doing something to maintain and excel at their livelihood. You may choose to believe something different. The only thing not in dispute is that he took a masking agent - everything else is obviously conjecture.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
And the first thing I said is that I don't. But he did take a masking agent, and he did recover from an injury suspiciously fast. What you choose to believe after that is up to you. I'll choose to believe that he is no different from the hundreds of others who were caught (from Marion Jones to Barry Bonds) doing something to maintain and excel at their livelihood. You may choose to believe something different. The only thing not in dispute is that he took a masking agent - everything else is obviously conjecture.
You said it deserves the stigma. I don't see how stating it in that way that you are embarking on conjecture. It doesn't deserve it by any stretch of the imagination. It's a consequence, but what has he done to deserve the stigma? Just by coming back early? It makes him look guilty without any proof.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
You said it deserves the stigma. I don't see how stating it in that way that you are embarking on conjecture. It doesn't deserve it by any stretch of the imagination. It's a consequence, but what has he done to deserve the stigma? Just by coming back early? It makes him look guilty without any proof.
He took a banned substance which was proven and was banned for a year from - that's what he did to deserve the stigma. The rest is obviously circumstantial. He was smart enough to take a masking agent on top of whatever else he may or may not have been taking, so it'll remain that way. The fact that he was banned for an illegal substance is enough to cause a stigma in my mind. It's obvious this is not enough to cause such in your mind, and that's fine.
 

subshakerz

International Coach
He took a banned substance which was proven and was banned for a year from - that's what he did to deserve the stigma. The rest is obviously circumstantial. He was smart enough to take a masking agent on top of whatever else he may or may not have been taking, so it'll remain that way. The fact that he was banned for an illegal substance is enough to cause a stigma in my mind. It's obvious this is not enough to cause such in your mind, and that's fine.
I agree. The president of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) in his book also heavily criticized Warne and the Australian board on one of the worst excuses for a positive drug test ever. Warne recovered magically in twice as quick the time as experts expected from a shoulder injury. Warne deserves the stigma.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20864596-5006069,00.html

Warne also gave a completely alternate account of his dealing with the bookie on Parkinson's as well, mentioning he never knew he was a bookie, but in the offical enquiry on the matter, Warne mentioned he the individual introduced himself as a bookie. So I'm not really trusting on Warne's opinions.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/warne-at-odds-over-john-the-bookie/2007/01/22/1169330773175.html
 

Migara

International Coach
The masking agent IS the diuretic. It can be used as such, it doesn't mean it was.
For what else it is used?

Indications of HCT (Hydrochlorothiazide) are

1. hypertension
2. Congestive cardiac failure
3. Idipathic hypercalciuria
4. Dihydropyridine induced edema and in few very rare disorders.

Which one of the above Warne did have to use HCT? He was definietly using it to mask the anabolic steroids from the immunosorbant assay (which is used to detect them qualititavely).

Very poor attempt indeed.:laugh: :laugh: :huh:
 

archie mac

International Coach
For what else it is used?

Indications of HCT (Hydrochlorothiazide) are

1. hypertension
2. Congestive cardiac failure
3. Idipathic hypercalciuria
4. Dihydropyridine induced edema and in few very rare disorders.

Which one of the above Warne did have to use HCT? He was definietly using it to mask the anabolic steroids from the immunosorbant assay (which is used to detect them qualititavely).

Very poor attempt indeed.:laugh: :laugh: :huh:
It is also used to lose weight?:unsure:
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
It is also used to lose weight?:unsure:
Yep. Considering he got the pills from mummy dearest, I am pretty sure he wasn't using it for the listed usages.

Having taken it upon himself to tell ACB, without having even waited for the B samples, after the ASDA told him he tested positively shows his intentions weren't dishonest because they wouldn't have said anything unless they did.
 
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silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Yep. Considering he got the pills from mummy dearest, I am pretty sure he wasn't using it for the listed usages.

Having taken it upon himself to tell ACB, without having even waited for the B samples, after the ASDA told him he tested positively shows his intentions weren't dishonest because they wouldn't have said anything unless they did.
Haha, right. Confessing to something after being tested positive hardly shows anything. And he says he got it from mommy dearest, that doesn't mean you should buy it. What's he going to say? Well, there was this guy from BALCO.....
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Haha, right. Confessing to something after being tested positive hardly shows anything. And he says he got it from mommy dearest, that doesn't mean you should buy it. What's he going to say? Well, there was this guy from BALCO.....
Without having being tested positive in his B samples it would have never gotten out. He did something he didn't have to do and told ACB early and withdrew.

It's not the kind of drug you need to get a prescription for, and it is obvious how vain he is/was. He doesn't have to say he got it from his mum, he could have gotten it for himself.

The evidence is circumstantial and whatever 'advantage' he was supposed to get (which weren't performance enhancing anyway) he didn't as he got banned.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I agree. The president of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) in his book also heavily criticized Warne and the Australian board on one of the worst excuses for a positive drug test ever. Warne recovered magically in twice as quick the time as experts expected from a shoulder injury. Warne deserves the stigma.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20864596-5006069,00.html

Warne also gave a completely alternate account of his dealing with the bookie on Parkinson's as well, mentioning he never knew he was a bookie, but in the offical enquiry on the matter, Warne mentioned he the individual introduced himself as a bookie. So I'm not really trusting on Warne's opinions.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/warne-at-odds-over-john-the-bookie/2007/01/22/1169330773175.html
He got the Parkinson story wrong so he is a drug-cheat? Are you okay? If what he said about the courts proving he didn't mask anything is wrong, don't you think that too would have been mentioned in the above article? Um, yeah.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
He doesn't have to say he got it from his mum, he could have gotten it for himself.
Sounds much more innocuous.

The evidence is circumstantial and whatever 'advantage' he was supposed to get (which weren't performance enhancing anyway) he didn't as he got banned.
The purpose of a masking agent is to mask those performance enhancing drugs - thats why it's illegal. We'll never know how much of those he took, if any.
 

subshakerz

International Coach
He got the Parkinson story wrong so he is a drug-cheat? Are you okay? If what he said about the courts proving he didn't mask anything is wrong, don't you think that too would have been mentioned in the above article? Um, yeah.
Um, no. He didnt just 'get the story wrong', he deliberately misrepresented and revised facts on national television to downplay his misdeeds and a sorry episode in cricket history, which shows how much his opinion can be trusted.

His whole "my mum gave me the pills" bit is uncovincing to start with, only moreso since its Warne. It's just hard to believe any cricketer who tests positive for a masking agent after an unprecendented and superspeeded recovery. The fact that the head of the anti-drug body felt it was one of the worst excuses for a positive test also says something.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Sounds much more innocuous.
It's irrelevant. Sportsmen should know what they're putting into their bodies. Whether their aunt, brother or mother gave it is irrelevant. They don't know what Warne can take, he does. So his own acceptance makes him accountable. When you put forth such a case, whether it sounds innocuous or not it's disregarded.

The purpose of a masking agent is to mask those performance enhancing drugs - thats why it's illegal. We'll never know how much of those he took, if any.
Exactly. Innocent till proven guilty.

Um, no. He didnt just 'get the story wrong', he deliberately misrepresented and revised facts on national television to downplay his misdeeds and a sorry episode in cricket history, which shows how much his opinion can be trusted.
He would deliberately get the story wrong...one that is already on the record...to revise which facts? Everyone already knows about them. He would have been high to think he could try.

And if his opinion can't be trusted, you do have the same journalists and fans following his word for any error. Yet their was none when he was citing his case about the drugs. That tells me more than "oh, you can't trust him anymore". Whatever.

His whole "my mum gave me the pills" bit is uncovincing to start with, only moreso since its Warne. It's just hard to believe any cricketer who tests positive for a masking agent after an unprecendented and superspeeded recovery. The fact that the head of the anti-drug body felt it was one of the worst excuses for a positive test also says something.
Where did you get the bit about it being unprecedented? Injuries occur all the time and new treatments always arise. It was thought Lillee would never recover from his stress-factures.

Actually, it's a totally plausible excuse. It's just still reckless. As a sportsman he should know what he should/shouldn't put into his body. In the frank terms Warne addressed it, he would call them 'water' tablets and it was well documented how Warne wanted to lose weight (which he did) and play in his last World Cup. Ignorance of the substance is not an excuse, hence his ban. Warne has been an idiot, but never a cheat.
 

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