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Gavaskar v Boycott

Who was the better opener?


  • Total voters
    61

archie mac

International Coach
I voted Boycott, but both were great openers, and I have no problem with Sunny winning this poll:)

I watched a lot more of Boycs than Sunny, but from what I watched there was not that much between them technique wise, both had a great defense and could play all the shots, but ....:-O
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Gee, is it too much for us to ask "why" you think Gavaskar was better? I mean, forums are all about debating - otherwise everyone would make their point by starting a thread then locking it (if they had such powers).
No it's not too much to ask, but I am not going to debate it with individuals who are going to come up with arguments like "his away avg. is inflated because he played against weak teams' and stuff like that. IMO these kind of arguments are very demeaning to such greats. Gee who doesn't play against weak teams ? Even Sir Don Bradman feasted against Indians and SAffies.

From what I saw I just think that Gavaskar was a better batsman than Boycott and had greater success as a batsman and as an opener pretty much all over the world against any kind of bowlers, was beautiful to watch hence better.
 

Bouncer

State Regular
That's an interesting one, because the myth far, far outdoes the reality. Gavaskar played a number of excellent innings against several very fine West Indian seam-attacks: Holder, Roberts, Boyce and Julien in '74\75; Roberts, Holding and Daniel in '76; and Marshall, Holding and Roberts\Daniel in '83\84. The legend, though, is that he scored many innings against four-pronged pace attacks where all four were legends: this is untrue, he played just one of these, 147* against Roberts, Holding, Garner and Marshall in 1983... on a last day where the Test was long-since foretombled to a draw having had 2 full days washed-out. This was still a fine innings, let's not forget, as the bowlers would hardly have been handing runs out on a plate.

But the Gavaskar legend outdoes the reality, not helped by the series in 1971 and 1978\79 where West Indies' bowling was abysmal. All the same, he still scored several fine knocks against several fine attacks, and even if he'd never scored a run against good West Indian attacks he scored many against others and would still be a magnificent player, almost certainly the best Test opener of the modern (post-1970) era. With Boycs 2nd.
Thats the first thing that came to my mind too. But i do think that sunil is still better batsman than Jeff.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Rubbish. Anyone like that won't last 5 minutes in the game of cricket.
TBF, whilst "horribly selfish" might be stretching it a tad, there are numerous anecdotes about Boycs's legendarily one-eyed approach to batting. Often, as with Kallis, their interest coincided with the team's, but sometimes it didn't. Perhaps most famously in the 1979 WC final when Boycott & Brearley took 38 overs to score 129. So slow was their scoring Gordon Greenidge actually alleges the Windies tried to keep them in.

When he was elected to the Yorkshire board in the 80s (and thus became effectively untouchable) he took it as a cue to play exactly how he wanted. Leo McKinstry, author of the really rather splendid Boycs & something of a fan says of this period,

"to what use would he put this dominance? Quite simply, the freedom to bat in his own way. He could wallow in the luxury of his own personal crusade to break every possible record without being distracted by the needs of the team."
 
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Top_Cat

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Sunny but I don't think the difference is that much. Boycs also had 100 FC hundreds which is not to be sneezed at.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
I voted Boycott, but both were great openers, and I have no problem with Sunny winning this poll:)

I watched a lot more of Boycs than Sunny, but from what I watched there was not that much between them technique wise, both had a great defense and could play all the shots, but ....:-O

I saw Sunny and Boycott both make centuries at the Oval in 1979. One of the pundits on TMS at the time was Trevor Bailey and when asked for a comparison he described Gavaskar as "the better judge of a bad ball".
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Both were fine players and on first viewing Gavaskar would be the obvious choice. More runs, better average etc

However, I have issues with a few things mentioned here.

Firstly, one of the biggest red herrings in cricket is Gavaskars record against WI. Our own SJS wrote a very enlightening piece elsewhere that showed that much of his runs against WI came against 2nd rate WI attacks which led to this myth that he repeatedly dominated the greatest fast bowling attack in the world. It simply didnt happen how people think it did.

Secondly, my issue with Gavaskar is that he averaged a pedestrian 38.6 outside drawn Test matches. Career statistics padded on docile tracks where wickets were hard to take.

Also the mention the Gavaskar was better as he was the main target for opposition bowlwers. Im not saying he wasnt but it was also the case with Boycott. Opposition teams used to gameplan to go after him as the belief was 'If you got Boycott you chopped the head off the team'

Both legendary players, but Ill vote Boycott. Mainly because it could go either way and there are plenty of others with 'soft' reasons going for Gavaskar.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Both were fine players and on first viewing Gavaskar would be the obvious choice. More runs, better average etc

However, I have issues with a few things mentioned here.

Firstly, one of the biggest red herrings in cricket is Gavaskars record against WI. Our own SJS wrote a very enlightening piece elsewhere that showed that much of his runs against WI came against 2nd rate WI attacks which led to this myth that he repeatedly dominated the greatest fast bowling attack in the world. It simply didnt happen how people think it did.

Secondly, my issue with Gavaskar is that he averaged a pedestrian 38.6 outside drawn Test matches. Career statistics padded on docile tracks where wickets were hard to take.

Also the mention the Gavaskar was better as he was the main target for opposition bowlwers. Im not saying he wasnt but it was also the case with Boycott. Opposition teams used to gameplan to go after him as the belief was 'If you got Boycott you chopped the head off the team'

Both legendary players, but Ill vote Boycott. Mainly because it could go either way and there are plenty of others with 'soft' reasons going for Gavaskar.
The slight problem I have is that out of 125 matches, Gavaskar only won 23. Going for a draw wasn't a default solution, and because we had no real bowling attack for most of career, he was famed for going after draws rather than wins. I have no doubt a large percentage of his knocks came in draws that would have resulted in wins or losses with any other team.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
What about their SRs? Don't they have similar (I am guessing Boycott had a worse one) figures? If so, draw or not, they were scoring at the same rate. So...I am not sure why it matters that one had more tied tests than the other if they were scoring at the same rate, even though Gavaskar scored more as well.
 

Top_Cat

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Also the mention the Gavaskar was better as he was the main target for opposition bowlwers. Im not saying he wasnt but it was also the case with Boycott. Opposition teams used to gameplan to go after him as the belief was 'If you got Boycott you chopped the head off the team'
Yup, exactly. Boycs was rated way more highly by his opposition than cricket fans which says quite a bit too. Although, the WI never rated him which is interesting. They felt that, whilst tough to remove and a great defensive batsman, he was not going to win England matches either. So they concentrated on keeping him quiet and knocking over everyone else around him. The Aussies of the 70's rated him Boycs very highly, though.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
What about their SRs? Don't they have similar (I am guessing Boycott had a worse one) figures? If so, draw or not, they were scoring at the same rate. So...I am not sure why it matters that one had more tied tests than the other if they were scoring at the same rate, even though Gavaskar scored more as well.
Strike rates are not important when looking at draws. Its about how tough a track is to bat on. Gavaskar batted on some very benign tracks on which many players scored lots of runs and no team was capable of taking 20 wickets.

When a player plays a disproportional amount of cricket on easy batting tracks it inflates the average.

Silentstriker said:
Going for a draw wasn't a default solution, and because we had no real bowling attack for most of career, he was famed for going after draws rather than wins. I have no doubt a large percentage of his knocks came in draws that would have resulted in wins or losses with any other team.
The problem with that is that the other good Indian batsmen of his time did exactly the same. Scored heavily in draws on docile tracks and then far less so on tracks that allowed a good balance and a team to take 20 wickets.

It certainly wasnt Gavaskar just batting for a draw and doing anything special. It was typical of the tracks that were being played on. Ie cash in on flat batting friendly tracks.

Vengsarkar averaged 31.22 outside draws
Viswanath averaged 35.44 outside draws
Mohinder Amarnath 36.26 outside draws

Just because certain players played a disproportional number of games on flat easy tracks that allowed lots of runs to be scored it doesnt mean they should be rated as the best.

Its looking deeper into averages than just the raw data.
 

Engle

State Vice-Captain
Sunny scored one of the games great doubles 221 at the Oval, chipping away at the monumental 438 target and bringing his side to within a few runs of victory.

Boycs's double ?...........well we wont go there
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I have voted gavaskar here so its clear what my opinion on this poll is. I have held that view throughout having watched both of them through most of their cereers (Gavaskar much more naturally) but I do have some reservations about the myth built around Gavaskar. I tried to do some 'deconstruction' on another site with a bit of research thrown in. Here it is since it is relevant to the debate here.

Note :I have nothing to add and no intention to get embroiled into further debate on this.

Gavaskar's career is a very interesting one. Before starting one has to state that he is one of the finest opening batsmen of all time but that should not prevent us from looking at his weaknesses. I have been fortunate enough to see him from his University days till the end of his great career. He was a batsman with a fabulous technique, a great idea of where his off stump was and one who could play all the strokes in the game though he gave up the hook very early in his test career.

Having said that, he did show a slightly reduced appetite for runs when faced by the real fast bowlers who also moved the ball. Pure speed did not trouble Gavaskar but movement coupled with sheer speed did find this great batsman at a level below his best - considerably his best I would say.

To analyse his career its not enough to talk of his record against the West Indies. Its much better to talk of his record away from the sub continent where the conditions did not often favour such bowling - speed and sharp movement - though there were the occasional exceptions to this. So lets look at how he fared in Australia, New Zealand, England AND West Indies.

Gavaskar in Australia

Gavaskar played three series in Australia.
  • 1977-78 (5 tests)
  • 1980-81 (3 tests)
  • 1985-86 (3 tests)

He has a great overall record - or so it appears - 920 runs in 11 tests at 51.11 with 5 centuries. Breaking up the series and looking at each bowling attack and Gavaskar's performance against each shows an interesting trend.

In the first series, the Packer series took away almost the entire Australian regular team and the attack Gavaskar faced had only Thomson of any class whatsoever. The bowlers who assisted Thommo with the new ball during this series were :
  • Wayne Clarke - who was making his debut
  • JB Gannon - who was making his debut never to play again
  • IW Callen - who was making his debut never to play again

Gavaskar's 450 runs at 50 each do not appear all that great in the light of this attack. He scored three centuries in the five tests.

In the last series in 1985-86, McDermott (a reasonable bowler) was assisted by :
  • DR Gilbert - who had made his debut earlier that year
  • Bruce Reid - making his debut and
  • Merv Hughes - making his debut !!

Gavaskar broke-in a lot of debutants down under :p

He averaged 117 plus in the three tests he played in this series.

Thus in these two series with five debutants and another near-debutant, Gavaskar scored 802 runs in 8 tests with five hundreds ! Great.

The series in the middle - 1980-81 - was the only time Gavaskar faced Dennis Lillee in a test match although they both made their debut in the 1970-71 season and Gavaskar outlasted Lillee by three years !

In this series, Lillee was assisted by Lenny Pascoe and Rodney Hogg. Gavaskar scored a fighting 70 in the last innings of this three test series in a partnership of 165 for the first wicket with Chetan Chauhan to set up Australia a mere 142 to win the series 2-0. Kapil rocked Australia with 5 for 28 for India to win the match by an amazing 59 runs and draw the series.

Gavaskar, before that 70, had scores of 0. 10. 23. 5 and 10. He averaged 19.67 for the series.

You cant help but wonder how he would have fared had he faced Lillee more often. Maybe he would have come out on top maybe not ...

Gavaskar in NewZealand

Gavaskar played just two series in NewZealand.

  • 1975-76 - 3 tests - 266 runs at 66.5
  • 1980-81 - 3 tests - 126 runs at 25.2

Not bad you could say. One good series one bad and an overall average of 43.6 . But who was the best NewZealand bowler of the day ? Richard Hadlee - right.

Hadlee missed the first test of the first series. Gavaskar scored 116 and 35 not out. The young Hadlee played the next two games and Gavaskar got 22, 71, and 22.

In the next series, Hadlee , now assisted by Lance Cairns played all the three tests and Gavaskar scored 23, 12, 53, 5 and 33 !

It is strange. 151 for once out in one game and an average of 30 in the next five and Hadlee happens to be a conspicuous difference between the two sets of games.

Gavaskar in West Indies.

Gavaskar played three series in the Carribean.
  • 1970-71 (4 tests) 774 runs at 154 +
  • 1975-76 (4 tests) 390 runs at 55.7
  • 1982-83 (5 tests) 240 runs at 30

The bowling attack of Gavaskar's debut series need not be discussed. Its well known that an ageing Sobers - as a bowler far from his best - was probably the better bowler in the side. But what of the other two series.

In the second series. Andy Roberts was available only for two games, Holding, who bowled pretty well, was making his debut (not again) and Brendon Julien and Wayne Daniell brought up the rear. It was a reasonable attack though not a fearsome one and nowhere near the great West Indian attacks we talk of with awe. Gavaskar did well averaging in the mid fifties. This was not an attack to bother this great batsman.

The third series saw Gavasker faced with the full fury of the Windies pace battery. Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall were available right through the series.

Gavaskar scored a superb 147 not out in the middle of the series - the 3rd test which was drawn without even a single innings of either side being completed. However, on either side of this century Gavaskar had scores of 20, 0, 1, 32, 2, 19, 18, 1. Clearly the fearsome foursome had the measure of our great little master.

Gavaskar in England

Gavaskar toured England five times - more than any other country. Except for 1979, his record was far from great. The 1979 tour saw Gavaskar in great touch and he played probably the finest innings an Indian has played in England ever. He scored 542 runs on this tour at 77.4 with four fifties and a magnificient 221. In the other four series he scored :-

  • 1971 - 3 tests - 144 runs at 24 - 1 fifty
  • 1974 - 3 tests - 217 runs at 36.2 - 1 fifty and 1 hundred
  • 1982 - 3 tests - 74 runs at 24.7 each - no fifty
  • 1986 - 3 tests - 175 runs at 29.2 each - 1 fifty

Not a great record.

The bowlers for these series were mainly Snow & Price, Old, Arnold & Hendricks, Willis & Botham and Dilley & Foster (with Pringle for company).

Well Gavaskar had his problems lets say and leave it at that.

RESPONDING TO A QUERY ON WHO GAVASKAR FELL TO IN THESE SERIES​
.

Although one doesn't always fall to the bowler who is troubling him which is why we say so-and-so benefitted ecause a great bowler was bowling at the other end, here are the figures you ask for.

1980-81 - Australia
- New ball bowlers - Lillee, Pascoe and Hogg
- Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of his six innings in the series - Lillee (2), Pascoe (3) and Hogg (1)​

1975-76 and 1980-81 - NZL
- Of the eight innings in which he face Hadlee he fell to him twice. Falling to Snedden twice, Lance Cairns once and Dayle Hadlee once.​

1982-83 - West Indies
- New Ball Bowlers - Holding, Marshall, Garner, Roberts
- Of his 8 didmissals in the series, Gavaskar fell to one or the other of these bowlers in seven innings and to another fast bowler, Winston Davis in the 8th.
- Holding (3), Marshall (2), Garner (2)​

I forgot England tours. Here are the four tours where he did not do well.

- Year : 1971
- Main Bowlers : Snow and Price

Gavaskar fell to them four times out of six innings, twice each​

- Year : 1974
- Main Bowers : Arnold, Chris Old and Hendrick

Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of the five innings he was dismissed by bowlers. Old (3), Arnold (2)​

- Year : 1982
- Main Bowlers : Botham and Willis

Gavaskar fell to them in each of the three innings he played . Willis (2), Botham (1)​

- Year : 1986
- Main Bowlers : Dilley, Foster and Pringle*

Gavaskar fell to them five times in six innings the other time being his old 'friend' from England's tour of India, John Lever. Dilley (2), Foster (1), Pringle (2)​

*Note: Pringle wasn't a frontline bowler but did very well in this series picking up 13 wickets in just two tests at very little cost.

I find it interesting to see how Gavaskar seemed to have trouble with those who made the ball come in as well as leave him. He was very good at letting the out swing go. We used to marvel at how he would let go deliveries pitching on the stumps and raise his bat and watch the ball pass just outside his off stump. He seemed to be flirting with danger but he knew exactly where his off stump was and where that ball was going. But if he got a bowler who made them come in as well as leave him, he had loads of problems.

Balls coming in and towards his middle and leg stump he had no problem and could keep clipping them off his toes from to mid-wicket to fine leg for days. But let the ball come in from outside the off stump and if it wasn't short enough he would have trouble.

Sometimes because it came in and had him leg before but more often when it didn't and he played at it not knowing it wasn't coming back.

One of the most frustrating things of watching Gavaskar bat was to see him give a master class and then suddenly touch one to the keeper or the slips. This from one who left literally hundreds of deliveries withing millimeters of his off stump.

His whole batting was built around leaving alone good deliveries if he could (or defending them if he couldn't) and punishing every lose delivery. His patience was phenomenal and his vigil (the wait for the loose delivery) never wavered. For someone who did not appear of an aggressive bent at the crease, Gavaskar was one of the most ruthless punishers of the bad delivery. He almost never missed it.

I strongly suspect that bowlers who troubled him with sharp and late inward movement, coupled with one that goes through or moves away off the seam, completely upset his normal game by making him unsure of which ball to leave.

But if he just brought the ball in and not much else, Gavaskar wasn't troubled.

It was fascinating to see how John Lever scythed through the Indian batting in India in 1976-77 , taking 26 wickets at a ridiculous 14.62 runs each with his massive inswing. While Lever was running through the Indian batting he did not get gavaskar too often. Gavaskar was having a modest home series - 394 runs in ten completed innings with one hundred and one fifty and an average approaching 40. However Lever got him only twice while Underwood took him out six times.

Gavaskar did not dominate Lever and was very watchful playing him but he did not get out to the new ball that often getting starts on most occasions with innings of 38 (140 balls), 71 (215), 18 (50), 39 (135), 24 (66), 50 (82), 108 (219), 42(103).

Thats a lot of deliveries. He was also becoming more aggresive towards the end of the series as his strike rate shows.​
 

archie mac

International Coach
I saw Sunny and Boycott both make centuries at the Oval in 1979. One of the pundits on TMS at the time was Trevor Bailey and when asked for a comparison he described Gavaskar as "the better judge of a bad ball".
I noticed you didn't vote?

Bailey would know a lot about leaving bad balls (and good ittbt:laugh: )
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I saw Sunny and Boycott both make centuries at the Oval in 1979. One of the pundits on TMS at the time was Trevor Bailey and when asked for a comparison he described Gavaskar as "the better judge of a bad ball".
I think thats a very fair comment.

One might be tempted to call Boycott "the better judge of a good ball" but then some would say he treated every ball as if it was a good ball :)
 

haroon510

International 12th Man
none of them.. this is like the poll of Dravd vs Kallis for me

i don't like any of them.. so i won't vote for any of them.. same story here with Gavaskar and Boycot i am not thier fan both as commentator and batsman..
 

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