Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

[sledger]

Actually you are right about Tazz, I knew there was someone else I forgot. I've probably been overly harsh on ECW, but what gets me about the whole ECW attitude is that they tried so hard to make sure that people thought they were an alternative to WWF/E and WCW rather than competition for them. That put such a glass ceiling on their whole operation. It meant the WWF fans that also watched WCW, or the WCW fans who also watched WWF would be less inclined to watch ECW because they were always bad-mouthing the other two firms, and their fans, and alienating people. WCW and WWF bad-mouthed each other from time to time, but people recognised that that's because they were competing with one another.

ECW had some outstanding wrestlers, it's true. But when you've got guys who are good enough wrestlers to put certain WCW and WWF main eventers to shame and you stick them in the midcard, people who appreciate technical wrestling are going to turn off in favour of WCW or WWF. Half the time it seemed like all Paul Heyman wanted to do was distance himself from WCW and WWF and **** on them and their wrestlers as much as possible. Look at the bWo gimmick. What was that, besides a blatant attempt to take the piss out of Hogan, Nash, Hall and WCW? If you're a WCW fan and you see that on ECW, you're gonna switch off, because it just seems lame and pathetic. If ECW had concentrated on their own product rather than on everyone else's, they might not have gone under quite so soon.

yeah probably true, what makes it even more stupid is that heyman spent loads of money on major endorsement deals, e.g. shelling out loads of cash so that they could use an offspring song as raven's entrance music, which was damn cool imo, but totally uneccesary considering that the company was badly strapped for cash.

 

[sledger]

For mine, The Great Khali is probably the worst I've seen. Mark Henry probably comes a close second, and I know you hate him too so I think you'll sympathise!

another who cole and JBL build up as a "monster", watch him destroy the mid card and then job all the time to the maineventers, what makes that guy wven worse is taht he gets injured walking to the ring lol, a walking liability, thougt he was meant to retire a few months back actually, dunno what happened there..

 

[Agent TBY]

Haha, you do realize the ECW fans were chanting 'boring' because of the WWE overload on the show? Randy Orton, or for that matter, Kurt Angle (who refused to work for ECW because of a certain match where a certain Raven was crucified. Look for "Chairshot from hell" if you have no idea what I'm talking about.) had no business being in an ECW ring. IIRC, the buildup to said PPV was horribly overbooked, which was a far cry from the original ONS which was supposed to be just that, a One Night Stand.

Also, regarding the original ECW, for every Terry Funk or Tommy Dreamer match, there was a Mikey Whipwreck, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit or Jerry Lynn match. Saying its fans weren't/aren't appreciative of wrestling is just revealing one's sheer ignorance of the subject at hand. Tajiri/Whipwreck formed one of the vilest, yet fun to watch tag teams ever, only being pipped to the post by possibly my favourite tag team, Los Guerreros.

Also, I fail to understand why most of the smarks are so intent on proving technical wrestling to be the only form of wrestling one should enjoy. As much as we do critique the behind-the-scenes process, a good in-ring product, be it of any form, is equally adept at entertaining. I love a good brawl or a good spot-fest as much as a good technical battle. That's one of the reasons I cut John Cena some slack. He can turn up at a good brawl and hold his own, as he showed in the TLC versus Edge or that under-rated 'I Quit' match against JBL. Anyone who reads through my posts in this thread would think I dislike Hollywood Dwayne, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. He was a fantastic entertainer, and Rock v Hogan was just, for lack of a more creative term, electrifying. Which is why it annoys me when people just slate these wrestlers and their in-ring capability, judging them solely on the scale where Samoa Joe, AJ Styles and Bryan Danielson rule the roost. ECW had a very solid in-ring product, and that, along with Paul Heyman's brilliant booking, was the reason for its success. Not the blood and the gore.

Obviously, ONS '06 was a bloody long time after the original ECW's peak. And the promotion's legend lived on for so long that bandwagon jumpers were bound to exist. These people listened to the stories of ECW's heyday and swore by it, considering it to be the Messiah of wrestling, without knowing a thing about what the Original was all about. It was these bandwagon jumpers that you heard on your DVD, Matt. Not the originals.

 

[sledger]

Haha, you do realize the ECW fans were chanting 'boring' because of the WWE overload on the show? Randy Orton, or for that matter, Kurt Angle (who refused to work for ECW because of a certain match where a certain Raven was crucified. Look for "Chairshot from hell" if you have no idea what I'm talking about.) had no business being in an ECW ring. IIRC, the buildup to said PPV was horribly overbooked, which was a far cry from the original ONS which was supposed to be just that, a One Night Stand.

Also, regarding the original ECW, for every Terry Funk or Tommy Dreamer match, there was a Mikey Whipwreck, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit or Jerry Lynn match. Saying its fans weren't/aren't appreciative of wrestling is just revealing one's sheer ignorance of the subject at hand. Tajiri/Whipwreck formed one of the vilest, yet fun to watch tag teams ever, only being pipped to the post by possibly my favourite tag team, Los Guerreros.

Also, I fail to understand why most of the smarks are so intent on proving technical wrestling to be the only form of wrestling one should enjoy. As much as we do critique the behind-the-scenes process, a good in-ring product, be it of any form, is equally adept at entertaining. I love a good brawl or a good spot-fest as much as a good technical battle. That's one of the reasons I cut John Cena some slack. He can turn up at a good brawl and hold his own, as he showed in the TLC versus Edge or that under-rated 'I Quit' match against JBL. Anyone who reads through my posts in this thread would think I dislike Hollywood Dwayne, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. He was a fantastic entertainer, and Rock v Hogan was just, for lack of a more creative term, electrifying. Which is why it annoys me when people just slate these wrestlers and their in-ring capability, judging them solely on the scale where Samoa Joe, AJ Styles and Bryan Danielson rule the roost. ECW had a very solid in-ring product, and that, along with Paul Heyman's brilliant booking, was the reason for its success. Not the blood and the gore.

Obviously, ONS '06 was a bloody long time after the original ECW's peak. And the promotion's legend lived on for so long that bandwagon jumpers were bound to exist. These people listened to the stories of ECW's heyday and swore by it, considering it to be the Messiah of wrestling, without knowing a thing about what the Original was all about. It was these bandwagon jumpers that you heard on your DVD, Matt. Not the originals.

pretty solid tbh, lol.

Do you remember towel boy sriram? he always made me laugh,

remember one time actually when RVD somehow ballsed up a van terminator and hit bill alfonso, rolled onto his back like a dead dog, made me laugh.

 

[Agent TBY]

However, the stuff that Benoit, RVD, Eddie, Super Crazy (who deserves so much better than to be part of a tag team with the oldest, most decrepit and talentless piece of junk still breathing in WWE, Hacksaw Jim Duggan) and others could do takes years and years of training, and yet they never made it beyond the midcard thanks to Heyman and the fans' bloodlust.

None of them (Save Eddie, who was poached so many times that Heyman would've lost count) could cut a promo to save their lives. ECW is only as guilty as the E or WCW in not elevating these wrestlers. RVD just seemed to be in lala land all the time, and Benoit just could not talk. Don't even want to get into Super Crazy here. I see you've raised some good points about Heyman losing the plot on certain occasions, like the bWo gimmick, for example. However, these occasions limited themselves to the undercard, rather than the uppercard where feuds and rivalries were built up in all seriousness. Heyman's booking relied heavily on mic time and angles, with the focus during the matches resting on entertaining, rather than telling a story. That being said, when he gave RVD and Lynn the ball, they ran with it during that quite sensational TV Title feud. If only RVD hadn't broken his leg, that certainly would've turned into a main event rivalry.

I'd liken this to WCW, really. The main event was loaded with brawlers, whereas the first hour of Nitro was filled to the brim with cruiserweights. This moistened the smarks' panties, and the casual fans were happy as well. It's just a question of learning to deal with the various audiences you have. ECW, however, had nothing like the 3-hour timeslot Nitro had.

 

[sledger]

i remember i used to watch nitro every now and again on a friday night around 8pm when cartoon network got shut down for the night and nitro came on after it.

 

[Agent TBY]

What happened to Daffney? She ran away with David Flair!!!!!

Also, I'm gutted we never really got to see who impregnated Miss Hancock.

 

[sledger]

haha what happened to david flair actually? I thought he was meant to be at one of the farm federations, I remember seeing him in the build up to WM19 when taker went down there and beat him up, or was that just all kayfabe?

daffney, david flair and crow bar were a humorous if somewhat pointless addition to nitro if i remmeber correctly.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Haha, you do realize the ECW fans were chanting 'boring' because of the WWE overload on the show? Randy Orton, or for that matter, Kurt Angle (who refused to work for ECW because of a certain match where a certain Raven was crucified. Look for "Chairshot from hell" if you have no idea what I'm talking about.) had no business being in an ECW ring. IIRC, the buildup to said PPV was horribly overbooked, which was a far cry from the original ONS which was supposed to be just that, a One Night Stand.

Also, regarding the original ECW, for every Terry Funk or Tommy Dreamer match, there was a Mikey Whipwreck, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit or Jerry Lynn match. Saying its fans weren't/aren't appreciative of wrestling is just revealing one's sheer ignorance of the subject at hand. Tajiri/Whipwreck formed one of the vilest, yet fun to watch tag teams ever, only being pipped to the post by possibly my favourite tag team, Los Guerreros.

Also, I fail to understand why most of the smarks are so intent on proving technical wrestling to be the only form of wrestling one should enjoy. As much as we do critique the behind-the-scenes process, a good in-ring product, be it of any form, is equally adept at entertaining. I love a good brawl or a good spot-fest as much as a good technical battle. That's one of the reasons I cut John Cena some slack. He can turn up at a good brawl and hold his own, as he showed in the TLC versus Edge or that under-rated 'I Quit' match against JBL. Anyone who reads through my posts in this thread would think I dislike Hollywood Dwayne, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. He was a fantastic entertainer, and Rock v Hogan was just, for lack of a more creative term, electrifying. Which is why it annoys me when people just slate these wrestlers and their in-ring capability, judging them solely on the scale where Samoa Joe, AJ Styles and Bryan Danielson rule the roost. ECW had a very solid in-ring product, and that, along with Paul Heyman's brilliant booking, was the reason for its success. Not the blood and the gore.

Obviously, ONS '06 was a bloody long time after the original ECW's peak. And the promotion's legend lived on for so long that bandwagon jumpers were bound to exist. These people listened to the stories of ECW's heyday and swore by it, considering it to be the Messiah of wrestling, without knowing a thing about what the Original was all about. It was these bandwagon jumpers that you heard on your DVD, Matt. Not the originals.

Let me get one thing straight - I do enjoy hardcore wrestling. Hell In A Cell '98 and the TLC match from WMX7 are possibly two of my favourite matches. And I do know exactly why the ECW fans were chanting "Boring" at that show - they hated the WWE product etc etc. But then why the heck did they completely mark out for Angle representing ECW? He got a huge pop. I guess that's the bandwagon jumpers you talk about. Incidentally, I knew about the incident where Sandman got crucified but hadn't seen it, and I just looked for it on dailymotion and the whole thing's not there, only part of a clip from a WWE documentary is. It was a pretty stupid thing to do, to be honest - I have to say if what Angle said about it at the time was true, and that Paul Heyman didn't know Raven was going to do it, then Heyman's either lying or he's an idiot.

I'm not too proud to admit I haven't seen a great deal of the original ECW in its heyday - most of the stuff I have seen comes from the few years before it went out of business, and probably doesn't represent the best of it. But the one thing that struck me was the "We want blood" chants I heard while watching Barely Legal and ONS '06. Regardless of whether the fans appreciated technical wrestling or not, IMO if you're willing to chant that then to be quite honest you're a sick ****.

On another interesting note, though, I completely agree with you about John Cena. I actually think he's been drastically mishandled by the company, and is actually one of the biggest talents they've got right now. If they hadn't spent two years booking him like Superman then they'd have themselves one hell of a popular superstar. He has fantastic mic skills (when they give him a storyline to work with other than "Cena overcomes the odds" - look at his original heel promos when he used to rap, they were great), and although he doesn't have the largest moveset and doesn't sell brilliantly, he rarely if ever botches moves and can always be relied upon for a long match if necessary. Coupled with that, he is also a near-perfect role model for kids outside of the ring, which is why after years of putting titles (major or not) on so many unreliable guys with external problems like RVD, or who were struggling to convince people they weren't on the juice, like Batista, I can certainly see why they felt the need to have Cena hold the belt for so long. The kids that are growing up watching Cena now are going to be the ones who will carry on watching in 5/6 years, when the company has a greater abundance of young stars than it does in today's relatively poor period.

 

[Agent TBY]

First off, let me apologise. The entire smark tirade wasn't really directed at you and tbh, I really should've mentioned that. It's just that I was skim-reading the thread and immediately got something on my chest I had to get rid of. And it's pretty obvious Heyman's lying. That man is the spawn of the devil, I say.

Agree with you completely regarding the blood chants. Unnecessary, and it really highlights the reason wrestling fans are stereotyped as rednecks.

It's funny you should mention John Cena's initial heel run. Let's all take a collective guess on who was Head Writer for Smackdown when Cena used to be interesting. We just keep going round and round.

Also, David Flair is an idiot. That is all.

 

[sledger]

cant forgive cena for saying "mcfly rock" though can we?

 

[sledger]

anyone got any predictions on armageddon?

I'll say Orton to retain, Y2J probably getting screwed somehow.

Batista to retain, Edge and Taker to boil over along the way.

Jeff Hardy vs HHH could go either way, would like to see Hardy go over here tbh, as it wont do HHH a lot of harm for him to lose, that said wouldnt be at all surprised to see him come out on top, and probably turn heel.

HBK vs Kennedy, can see this ending with a DQ and a rematch further along the line, seems like kennedy is still being punished for his suspension, so maybe an HBK win.

presumably finlay will face great khali, but dont really care tbh, so meh.

 

[Barney Rubble]

First off, let me apologise. The entire smark tirade wasn't really directed at you and tbh, I really should've mentioned that. It's just that I was skim-reading the thread and immediately got something on my chest I had to get rid of. And it's pretty obvious Heyman's lying. That man is the spawn of the devil, I say.

Agree with you completely regarding the blood chants. Unnecessary, and it really highlights the reason wrestling fans are stereotyped as rednecks.

It's funny you should mention John Cena's initial heel run. Let's all take a collective guess on who was Head Writer for Smackdown when Cena used to be interesting. We just keep going round and round.

Also, David Flair is an idiot. That is all.

Nah, it's cool, I've only been a proper smark for about 8 months (only started watching WWE again about a year ago), so I'm used to not really knowing what I'm on about.

cant forgive cena for saying "mcfly rock" though can we?

Haha, when did he say that?! On the subject of them, I really pissed off a pupil of mine in my first week when I was doing my "Hi, I'm your new English assistant" thing with them. She was about 16 and they were asking me questions about who I am, where I come from, and they got onto what music I listen to, she asked me if I like McFly. I laughed and said "No, I hate them. No-one over the age of 14 in England listens to them." She looked really offfended, but I found it pretty funny TBH.

 

[sledger]

Haha, when did he say that?! On the subject of them, I really pissed off a pupil of mine in my first week when I was doing my "Hi, I'm your new English assistant" thing with them. She was about 16 and they were asking me questions about who I am, where I come from, and they got onto what music I listen to, she asked me if I like McFly. I laughed and said "No, I hate them. No-one over the age of 14 in England listens to them." She looked really offfended, but I found it pretty funny TBH.

haha, he was on the nickelodeon kids choice awards a few weeks ago, prentended to be upset when david beckham beat him to the sports personality award, said he would face becks at WM30 lol, and they actually drew up a promo poster lol.

 

[Barney Rubble]

haha, he was on the nickelodeon kids choice awards a few weeks ago, prentended to be upset when david beckham beat him to the sports personality award, said he would face becks at WM30 lol, and they actually drew up a promo poster lol.

Haha, that sounds funny. I might look for it on dailymotion.

Also, did you see the episode of the US version of Deal or No Deal with Sign Guy on it? He won loads of money, and Cena, Lashley, Edge and RKO all showed up to cheer him on/boo him. Lashley actually showed some personality which was a surprise - I think he just feels under pressure when he's actually doing promos, he doesn't seem to be a genuinely boring person. Maybe he has potential once he gets more comfortable with things.

 

[33/3from3.3]

haha, he was on the nickelodeon kids choice awards a few weeks ago, prentended to be upset when david beckham beat him to the sports personality award, said he would face becks at WM30 lol, and they actually drew up a promo poster lol.

Who was it, Lashley? Cena?

 

[ohtani's jacket]

ECW never made any money. I doubt Heyman had two cents to rub together the whole time. He ran it out of his mother's basement & the shows were in a rundown bingo hall in Philly. It was an underground thing that coincided with people getting online, posting on bulletin boards, subscribing to the Observer or Torch, tape-trading, etc., all of which meant ECW made some noise. Anyway, it was Extreme Championship Wrestling, it was supposed to be a "garbage" fed, like FMW in Japan (not to mention the long history of bloody gimmick matches in the US, Mexico and Puerto Rico.) Due to the rise in tape-trading, Heyman brought in guys from Mexico and Japan and gave them semi-national exposure. Bischoff signed them up & that was one of the reasons that Heyman had an "us against them" vendetta against Atlanta. He was a former WCW employee himself and booked fired, disgrunted WCW wrestlers like Austin, Foley and Pillman, who "shot" on Dusty, Hogan, Flair, Bischoff & WCW in promos, which had a big influence on WWF and WCW during the Monday Night Wars. He had a working agreement with WWF and was on their payroll, and there was a small WWF/ECW angle in '97. The fans were "smart" and always chanted **** like "You Sold Out!", "We Want Blood!", "Boring!" and, of course, "ECW! ECW!" The fans sucked.

 

[Barney Rubble]

anyone got any predictions on armageddon?

I'll say Orton to retain, Y2J probably getting screwed somehow.

Batista to retain, Edge and Taker to boil over along the way.

Jeff Hardy vs HHH could go either way, would like to see Hardy go over here tbh, as it wont do HHH a lot of harm for him to lose, that said wouldnt be at all surprised to see him come out on top, and probably turn heel.

HBK vs Kennedy, can see this ending with a DQ and a rematch further along the line, seems like kennedy is still being punished for his suspension, so maybe an HBK win.

presumably finlay will face great khali, but dont really care tbh, so meh.

I'd say Orton will retain for a while yet, TBH. I think he'll end Flair's career at WM by defeating him for the title.

I actually think we'll get an Edge win at Armageddon - that way we can have a rematch at the Rumble in a gimmick match where 'Taker interferes, then 'Taker can win in the Elimination Chamber at NWO to get the title shot at WM.

I can see a DQ in the Kennedy-HBK showdown too - I think they'll put Ken over in the rematch though, they need him to be over enough to be a viable option for WM.

I think Jeff will beat HHH as an excuse for HHH to turn heel, and for Jeff to get his long-awaited title shot at the Rumble. He won't win, though.

Finlay vs Khali, no-one cares, but Finlay is getting over very well as a face, which is nice, as he's extremely good at what he does and doesn't get much credit.

 

[sledger]

I'd say Orton will retain for a while yet, TBH. I think he'll end Flair's career at WM by defeating him for the title.

I actually think we'll get an Edge win at Armageddon - that way we can have a rematch at the Rumble in a gimmick match where 'Taker interferes, then 'Taker can win in the Elimination Chamber at NWO to get the title shot at WM.

I can see a DQ in the Kennedy-HBK showdown too - I think they'll put Ken over in the rematch though, they need him to be over enough to be a viable option for WM.

I think Jeff will beat HHH as an excuse for HHH to turn heel, and for Jeff to get his long-awaited title shot at the Rumble. He won't win, though.

Finlay vs Khali, no-one cares, but Finlay is getting over very well as a face, which is nice, as he's extremely good at what he does and doesn't get much credit.

the jeff/HHH feud is the one i'm most interested in actually, would be great boost for him were he to win, and imo he should one day hold the world title for a period, albeit perhaps not a particularly long one, but if rey mysterio can have a reign then jeff sure should as well.

theres something about kennedy that has just began to grate with me, i cant quite work out what it is, but somehow this new "intense" persona he's been given irritates me as well, i enjoyed it when he was more of a loud mouth just ranting and insulting the fans/the town/whoever etc... rather than this crazy person they portray him as, he's not done much of any note in the ring recently either which doesnt help.

But yeah, nice to see the crowd responding well to Finlay, quite enjoying watching MVP at the moment actually, great on the mic and pretty decent in ring, another the E have no doubt marked up as a future world champ, shame about the goofy attire required to hide his stupid tatoos mind

 

[sledger]

Who was it, Lashley? Cena?

it was a poster for Cena vs Beckham, obviously a joke, but tbh stranger things have happened lol.