Garry Sobers-A master of black magic?

[Sanz]

Thats what ICC ratings based on peaks say about Imran Khan & Gary Sobers:

LEADING BATSMEN

1 D Bradman (Aus) 961 pts
2 L Hutton (Eng) 945
3 J Hobbs (Eng) 942
4 P May (Eng) 941
5 V Richards (WI) 938
5= C Walcott (WI) 938
5= G Sobers (WI) 938
8 R Ponting (Aus) 937
9 M Hayden (Aus) 935
10 Z Abbas (Pkn) 930

LEADING BOWLERS

1 J Garner (WI) 940 pts
2 S Barnes (Eng) 932
3 G Lohmann (Eng) 931
4 R Hadlee (NZ) 923
5 Imran Khan (Pkn) 922
6 M Muralitharan (SL) 915
7 G McGrath (Aus) 914
8 T Lock (Eng) 912
8= C Ambrose (WI) 912
10 I Botham (Eng) 911

Which shows that there have been only 4 bowlers better at their peaks than Imran Khan while 5 batsmen have been better than Garry Sobers.So,there was hardly any difference between their main disciplines at their peaks.And Imran at his peak was a more consistent batsman than Sobers was a bowler.Thats one of the other so many reasons that I rate Imran Khan a better allrounder than Garry Sobers.

Do you have problem reading simple things or what ? Not that it means anything but since it is so important criteria for you, wouldn't it be worth if you read your own posts properly before presenting them as some sort of argument in favor of Imran ?

Sobers is placed @ no. 5 so is Imran, so how is it that Imran has only 4 bowlers better than him at their peak but Sobers has 5 batsmen better than him at their peak.

Also when you say Imran at his peak was a more consistent batsman than Sobers was a bowler, So this peak is Imran's peak as an allrounder or as a batsman ?

 

[Sanz]

Sobers Vs Imran Rating throughout their career as a batsmen :-

http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/p...&name2=Imran&name_selected2=1803&type=Compare

As Bowlers :-

http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/p...&name2=Imran&name_selected2=1803&type=Compare

Sobers best rating as bowler was 715. So the difference between his bowling and Imran's bowling at their peak is 207 points.
In 1964 he was the 4th best bowler in the world (according to the rankings). That's his best ranking.

Imran's Highest batting rating was 650, the difference between his batting and Sobers(938) batting at their peak is 288 points.

In 1991 Imran was the 12th best batsman in the world(according to the ranking) and that's his best ranking.

 

[Sanz]

All Rounder Ratings :-

Sobers :- http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/all-rounder/player-display.php?id=943

Highest Rating - 669 (in 1966)

Imran - http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/all-rounder/player-display.php?id=1803

Hisghest Rating :- 517 (in 1983)

 

[Sanz]

Because doing 55,3/44,30,4/52,50,5/42,30,2/42 much more times than Sobers did 75,2/53,15,3/71,60,2/34,35,1/28.

That's really incorrect.

In 27 test matches Sobers took more than 3 wickets in the test and scored at least one 50, Imran achieved that feat in only 10 test matches.

in 37 test matches Sobers took more than 2 wickets in the test and scored at least one 50, Imran achieved that feat in 16 test matches.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

That's really incorrect. In 27 test matches Sobers took more than 3 wickets in the test and scored at least one 50. Imran achieved that feat in only 10 test matches.

I'm not judging it in terms of 3 wickets & 50 but consistency as an allrounder.

 

[Sanz]

I'm not judging it in terms of 3 wickets & 50 but consistency as an allrounder.

I am not sure what you trying to suggest when you said this :- http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1372361&postcount=657

Whatever it was, I was merely trying to prove that it was not true.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Also when you say Imran at his peak was a more consistent batsman than Sobers was a bowler, So this peak is Imran's peak as an allrounder or as a batsman ?

He might also be more consistent at his allround peak but I'm at least sure that at his batting peak,he was.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Do you have problem reading simple things or what ? Not that it means anything but since it is so important criteria for you, wouldn't it be worth if you read your own posts properly before presenting them as some sort of argument in favor of Imran ?

Sobers is placed @ no. 5 so is Imran, so how is it that Imran has only 4 bowlers better than him at their peak but Sobers has 5 batsmen better than him at their peak.

Sorry for that old rankings,here are the recent ones.



Bowlers:http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/bowling/all-time-ranking.php

1. S.F. Barnes ENG 932 932 v South Africa, 14/02/1914
2. G.A. Lohmann ENG 931 931 v South Africa, 02/03/1896
3. Imran Khan PAK 922 922 v India, 30/01/1983
4. M. Muralidaran SL 920 920 v Bangladesh, 11/07/2007
5. G.D. McGrath AUS 914 914 v England, 23/08/2001
6. C.E.L. Ambrose WI 912 912 v England, 25/03/1994
7. G.A.R. Lock ENG 912 912 v New Zealand, 24/07/1958
8. I.T. Botham ENG 911 911 v India, 15/02/1980
9. M.D. Marshall WI 910 910 v England, 30/06/1988

So,Imran is at 3 and there have been no modern day bowlers better at their Peaks than Imran.

Batsmen:http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/batting/all-time-ranking.php


1)D.G. Bradman AUS 961 961 v India, 06/02/1948
2)L. Hutton ENG 945 945 v West Indies, 30/03/1954
3)R.T. Ponting AUS 942 942 v England, 01/12/2006
4)J.B. Hobbs ENG 942 942 v Australia, 19/08/1912
5)P.B.H. May ENG 941 941 v Australia, 23/08/1956
6)I.V.A. Richards WI 938 938 v England, 27/03/1981
6)G.S. Sobers WI 938 938 v India, 13/01/1967
8)C.L. Walcott WI 938 938 v Australia, 11/06/1955
9)M.L. Hayden AUS 935 935 v England, 07/11/2002
10)Mohammad Yousuf PAK 933 933 v West Indies, 27/11/2006

So,there have been 5 better than Sobers as compared only 2 than Imran.Thats one of the reasons Imran was as gooa bowler as Sobers was batsman.

 

[Sanz]

He might also be more consistent at his allround peak but I'm at least sure that at his batting peak,he was.

Not true. If you look at the graph that I posted, you will notice that Once sobers hit the 500 mark rating as a bowler he never went below that infact he was in the middle-to-top tier for the most part at around 650-675 mark.Also he hit the 500 mark in 1961-62 and never got below that which is about 12-13 year periodl

On the other hand if you look at Imran's batting graph, you will see that he first hit the 500 mark in 1982-83 and then hit below 500 again in 1986 before picking it up and slowly heading toward the middle-top mark near the end of his career which is between 1990 onwards. Also Imran hit the 500 mark first in 1982-83, and then again in 1986-87, hence his 500 + rating lasted for about a total of 9 years.

Clearly shows that Sobers bowling was more consistent than Imran's batting.

As for their allround consistency, please take a look at the allrounder graph I posted.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Not true. If you look at the graph that I posted, you will notice that Once sobers hit the 500 mark rating as a bowler he never went below that infact he was in the middle-to-top tier for the most part at around 650-675 mark.Also he hit the 500 mark in 1961-62 and never got below that which is about 12-13 year periodl

On the other hand if you look at Imran's batting graph, you will see that he first hit the 500 mark in 1982-83 and then hit below 500 again in 1986 before picking it up and slowly heading toward the middle-top mark near the end of his career which is between 1990 onwards. Also Imran hit the 500 mark first in 1982-83, and then again in 1986-87, hence his 500 + rating lasted for about a total of 9 years.

Clearly shows that Sobers bowling was more consistent than Imran's batting.

As for their allround consistency, please take a look at the allrounder graph I posted.

Allrounder wise,he gets ahead in rankings because of his batting.He was at one hand,an excellent batsman but at the other a rubbish bowler for about half of his career as his stats show.Imran was rubbish as a batsman for just one theird of his career.Thats why Imran was better.

 

[Sanz]

Allrounder wise,he gets ahead in rankings because of his batting.

Okay, but you just said that Imran's bowling was either better than or equal to Sobers batting. If that is indeed true and If Sobers' batting is helping him get ahead in ratings then why doesn't Imran's ranking as a bowler help him either top Sobers or atleast equal him(sobers) as an allrounder? Doesn't that prove that Sobers Batting was way better than Imran's bowling esp since you consider Sobers as a mediocre bowler and Imran's batting >> Sobers' Bowling ?
.

 

[Richard]

Why is there any point in trying to continue to argue this? BhupinderSingh - you know you're not going to convince Sanz (or, TBH, many people). Why not just be happy that you rate Imran the best all-rounder, and seam-bowler, of all-time, and realise that you're not going to get anything more from the debate? Equally, those others should realise that there's no way they're going to convince you he wasn't.

I realise there is a very certain element of PCKB (that's pots and kettles for those who CBA with that abbreviation) here, obviously, but I myself have just earlier today said I'd make an effort to cut this sort of thing out. Personally, I am very tired of the Imran saga - though I certainly don't think ranking him the greatest all-rounder, nor seam-bowler, ever is a ridiculous notion nor one that cannot be considered with any seriousness - as I realise many others are tired of the Bangladesh saga and several others.

This despite the fact that most people value my contribution to this forum, as I and pretty well everyone I've spoken to values yours (BhupinderSingh's).

To emphasise the point - this thread is now, as of the time of this post, the 5th-biggest (reply terms) non-trivia, non-*Official*, non-battle, non-pick-the-all-time-this-and-that, thread in CC history. Guess what's 4th? Yes, the How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee? thread. The only ones ahead are Andre's Most Overrated Player (and that could be far larger if we merged all similar threads), the Wisden Cricketers of the Century thread, and the Michael Clarke - all hype, no performance one.

This is quite something, I tell you. And much good stuff has come from this thread, and the Lillee one, beyond doubt. But there's also been a hell of a lot of around-in-circles posts. Obviously, we can thank our lucky stars there's no C_C otherwise both these aforementioned threads would probably have been even worse (either that or they'd have been closed long ago). But let's try and cut down on this sort of thing in future hey everyone? We all know how guys like myself and BhupinderSingh feel on certain issues.

 

[Anil]

I realise there is a very certain element of PCKB (that's pots and kettles for those who CBA with that abbreviation) here, obviously, but I myself have just earlier today said I'd make an effort to cut this sort of thing out.

good for you, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem...

 

[Perm]

TBF, there are quite a few of us who do. I personally have Viv below Sobers and Hobbs, but ahead of Headley and Pollock.

Not that there is a great deal between any of them really.

Shame Pollock and Headley didn't play more Test matches, and if they did I am sure that Richards would be ranked lower than them. As Richard has said a number of times, I think that people generally rate Sir Viv Richards as highly as they do due the way in which he batted, as opposed to the runs he scored. Now IMO, that's not 'right'.

 

[Fusion]

Why is there any point in trying to continue to argue this? BhupinderSingh - you know you're not going to convince Sanz (or, TBH, many people). Why not just be happy that you rate Imran the best all-rounder, and seam-bowler, of all-time, and realise that you're not going to get anything more from the debate? Equally, those others should realise that there's no way they're going to convince you he wasn't.

I realise there is a very certain element of PCKB (that's pots and kettles for those who CBA with that abbreviation) here, obviously, but I myself have just earlier today said I'd make an effort to cut this sort of thing out. Personally, I am very tired of the Imran saga - though I certainly don't think ranking him the greatest all-rounder, nor seam-bowler, ever is a ridiculous notion nor one that cannot be considered with any seriousness - as I realise many others are tired of the Bangladesh saga and several others.

This despite the fact that most people value my contribution to this forum, as I and pretty well everyone I've spoken to values yours (BhupinderSingh's).

To emphasise the point - this thread is now, as of the time of this post, the 5th-biggest (reply terms) non-trivia, non-*Official*, non-battle, non-pick-the-all-time-this-and-that, thread in CC history. Guess what's 4th? Yes, the How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee? thread. The only ones ahead are Andre's Most Overrated Player (and that could be far larger if we merged all similar threads), the Wisden Cricketers of the Century thread, and the Michael Clarke - all hype, no performance one.

This is quite something, I tell you. And much good stuff has come from this thread, and the Lillee one, beyond doubt. But there's also been a hell of a lot of around-in-circles posts. Obviously, we can thank our lucky stars there's no C_C otherwise both these aforementioned threads would probably have been even worse (either that or they'd have been closed long ago). But let's try and cut down on this sort of thing in future hey everyone? We all know how guys like myself and BhupinderSingh feel on certain issues.

Great post Richard! I think you've summarized the situation quite well. I think the topic has now been debated to death and is not going to produce any new points or change anyone's opinions. Though I must say that it wasn't all worthless. I think Bhupinder's Imran threads/posts brought Cricket Chat to life again. It had been very slow lately and his enthusiasm for Imran certainly caused a lot of interesting back and forth!

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Okay, but you just said that Imran's bowling was either better than or equal to Sobers batting. If that is indeed true and If Sobers' batting is helping him get ahead in ratings then why doesn't Imran's ranking as a bowler help him either top Sobers or atleast equal him(sobers) as an allrounder? Doesn't that prove that Sobers Batting was way better than Imran's bowling esp since you consider Sobers as a mediocre bowler and Imran's batting >> Sobers' Bowling ?
.

I've already told you that I rate allrounders in a different way than you do.My ratings are almost sloely based on stats while yours are not.Sobers was a good batsman almost right from the start of his career while Imran was nothing with the bat nor ball till 1977.Thats the superiority Sobers has over Imran & thats the thing which Sobers has got advantage of while being.Imran at his peak averaged 51 with the bat & 19 with the ball.Where as Sobers at his peak(which was a 7 years period) averaged in early 60s with the bat & around 28 with the ball.I've already stated so many times by presenting statistical & other facts that how Imran's bowling equals Sobers' batting.And there was not any huge difference between between Imran's batting & Sobers' bowling but Imran's batting was just better IMO.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Why is there any point in trying to continue to argue this? BhupinderSingh - you know you're not going to convince Sanz (or, TBH, many people). Why not just be happy that you rate Imran the best all-rounder, and seam-bowler, of all-time, and realise that you're not going to get anything more from the debate? Equally, those others should realise that there's no way they're going to convince you he wasn't.

I realise there is a very certain element of PCKB (that's pots and kettles for those who CBA with that abbreviation) here, obviously, but I myself have just earlier today said I'd make an effort to cut this sort of thing out. Personally, I am very tired of the Imran saga - though I certainly don't think ranking him the greatest all-rounder, nor seam-bowler, ever is a ridiculous notion nor one that cannot be considered with any seriousness - as I realise many others are tired of the Bangladesh saga and several others.

This despite the fact that most people value my contribution to this forum, as I and pretty well everyone I've spoken to values yours (BhupinderSingh's).

To emphasise the point - this thread is now, as of the time of this post, the 5th-biggest (reply terms) non-trivia, non-*Official*, non-battle, non-pick-the-all-time-this-and-that, thread in CC history. Guess what's 4th? Yes, the How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee? thread. The only ones ahead are Andre's Most Overrated Player (and that could be far larger if we merged all similar threads), the Wisden Cricketers of the Century thread, and the Michael Clarke - all hype, no performance one.

This is quite something, I tell you. And much good stuff has come from this thread, and the Lillee one, beyond doubt. But there's also been a hell of a lot of around-in-circles posts. Obviously, we can thank our lucky stars there's no C_C otherwise both these aforementioned threads would probably have been even worse (either that or they'd have been closed long ago). But let's try and cut down on this sort of thing in future hey everyone? We all know how guys like myself and BhupinderSingh feel on certain issues.

Excellent post & I'm neither going to create any new Imran Khan threads nor going to argue in his favour in already created threads in near future,unless someone posts something outlandish about Imran Khan.After the recent discussions that have taken place in last few days,Sobers' has jumped from # 6 to # 3 in my alltime top 10 allrounders list & most of these guys already rate Imran Khn is 2nd best allrounder ever.So,its not like these discussions have been totally fruitless.

 

[honestbharani]

Sorry for that old rankings,here are the recent ones.



Bowlers:http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/bowling/all-time-ranking.php

1. S.F. Barnes ENG 932 932 v South Africa, 14/02/1914
2. G.A. Lohmann ENG 931 931 v South Africa, 02/03/1896
3. Imran Khan PAK 922 922 v India, 30/01/1983
4. M. Muralidaran SL 920 920 v Bangladesh, 11/07/2007
5. G.D. McGrath AUS 914 914 v England, 23/08/2001
6. C.E.L. Ambrose WI 912 912 v England, 25/03/1994
7. G.A.R. Lock ENG 912 912 v New Zealand, 24/07/1958
8. I.T. Botham ENG 911 911 v India, 15/02/1980
9. M.D. Marshall WI 910 910 v England, 30/06/1988

So,Imran is at 3 and there have been no modern day bowlers better at their Peaks than Imran.

Batsmen:http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/batting/all-time-ranking.php


1)D.G. Bradman AUS 961 961 v India, 06/02/1948
2)L. Hutton ENG 945 945 v West Indies, 30/03/1954
3)R.T. Ponting AUS 942 942 v England, 01/12/2006
4)J.B. Hobbs ENG 942 942 v Australia, 19/08/1912
5)P.B.H. May ENG 941 941 v Australia, 23/08/1956
6)I.V.A. Richards WI 938 938 v England, 27/03/1981
6)G.S. Sobers WI 938 938 v India, 13/01/1967
8)C.L. Walcott WI 938 938 v Australia, 11/06/1955
9)M.L. Hayden AUS 935 935 v England, 07/11/2002
10)Mohammad Yousuf PAK 933 933 v West Indies, 27/11/2006

So,there have been 5 better than Sobers as compared only 2 than Imran.Thats one of the reasons Imran was as gooa bowler as Sobers was batsman.

Did Imran perform better than Hadlee and Barnes recently or did Barnes and Hadlee perform poorly for them to lose out now?????????

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Did Imran perform better than Hadlee and Barnes recently or did Barnes and Hadlee perform poorly for them to lose out now?????????

I don't know,ask ICC.Their previous syatem was full of flaws though as it didn't even have Marshall & Muralitharan in top 10.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I don't know,ask ICC.Their previous syatem was full of flaws though as it didn't even have Marshall & Muralitharan in top 10.

In other words they continually modify their system until it comes up with the same players that most people would hand pick anyway.