Imran Khan vs Keith Miller

[Sanz]

Sir that meant 5 years as a specialist bowler & most of rest period as a genuine allrounder.

5 years ? Between 1971-79 and again between 1989-92 - That's 11-12 years, more than half of his career.

 

[subshakerz]

Despite all the so called mediocrity and inconsistency Botham took more wickets and made more runs for his country than Imran did.

So? He also played quite a few more test matches than Imran, so its not that surprising. Kapil Dev has more runs and wickets than either of them, that doesn't mean much though.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

While I don't consider him the 2nd greatest cricketer ever, I do think Imran was the 2nd most complete player ever, behind Sobers. I don't think it's quite so laughable to throw Imran's name out there for the list of top 5 or 10 cricketers. He is considered by most to be in the top 10 (if not 5) greatest bowlers, top 5 greatest AR, and top 5 greatest Captains. His performance was outstanding against the best team of his time (individually and in a collective contribution as Captain). Add to all this the fact that Imran discovered and nurtured great talent, and his case for being amongst the greatest ever is even stronger.

Yes,those are the reasons why I rate Imran so highly.A few people here try to attack my credibility for that reason & accuse me of being biased but never realize that how much I criticize & bash dozens of other Pakistani cricketers.

 

[subshakerz]

While I don't consider him the 2nd greatest cricketer ever, I do think Imran was the 2nd most complete player ever, behind Sobers. I don't think it's quite so laughable to throw Imran's name out there for the list of top 5 or 10 cricketers. He is considered by most to be in the top 10 (if not 5) greatest bowlers, top 5 greatest AR, and top 5 greatest Captains. His performance was outstanding against the best team of his time (individually and in a collective contribution as Captain). Add to all this the fact that Imran discovered and nurtured great talent, and his case for being amongst the greatest ever is even stronger.

Well put, those are precisely my reasons for rating him highly. Aside from fielding, he achieved everything you can think of as a cricketer.

He had more influence on his country's cricket than perhaps any other. When he started, Pakistan were classical underachievers and in the cricket background. When he left, they were world champs. Primarily due to him.

 

[Sanz]

Yes,14 centuries in his whole career,not at his peak.

Last Century Botham hit was in 1986 - Between 1986-92 he was crap just Like Imran was between 1971-1977. But you seem to ignore that period for Imran but never forget to bring it to our attention that Botham was crap for almost half of his career. So much for being fair to both the parties.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

5 years ? Between 1971-79 and again between 1989-92 - That's 11-12 years, more than half of his career.

I said 5 years as a a specialist bowers.Between 1989-92 he was a batting allrounder.Imran originally made the side side as as batsman/batting allrounder(to partner his cousin Majid Khan),not as a bowler.

 

[Fusion]

Yes,those are the reasons why I rate Imran so highly.A few people here try to attack my credibility for that reason & accuse me of being biased but never realize that how much I criticize & Bash dozens of other Pakistani cricketers.

Bhupinder, I think you have a right to your opinions. You are not one to just throw out an outlandish opinion and then run away. You defend your views and IMO contribute positively in debates, whether I agree with you or not. However, you have to realize that with the abundance of Imran threads you have started to irk people. Some people have plainly stated that they voted/argued against Imran just because they were annoyed with how many threads you create for him. If your objective is to make people realize the greatness of Khan, then sadly you're having an adverse effect. I would suggest humbly to stop with the Imran threads, no matter what aspect of his career is being discussed. That is not to say you can't comment on Imran or vote for him in some thread. Just remember, all things are better in moderation.

 

[Sanz]

When he left, they were world champs. Primarily due to him.

You dont win World cup because of one person, But If one person can be given credit for Pakistan's world up win then it would be Wasim Akram. Imran's role in the WC win is over-rated.

 

[neville cardus]

After Trueman dismissed him in a Test match he quipped to the departing Miller 'Just another batsman it seems'. I thought this amusing but was a little sad to hear that Trueman felt the need to repeat the comment, when he dismissed Miller in the 2nd innings.

I disagree. It's a quintessentially (and hence delightfully) Truemanesque piece of repartee.

 

[Sanz]

Between 1989-92 he was a batting allrounder

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Bhupinder, I think you have a right to your opinions. You are not one to just throw out an outlandish opinion and then run away. You defend your views and IMO contribute positively in debates, whether I agree with you or not. However, you have to realize that with the abundance of Imran threads you have started to irk people. Some people have plainly stated that they voted/argued against Imran just because they were annoyed with how many threads you create for him. If your objective is to make people realize the greatness of Khan, then sadly you're having an adverse effect. I would suggest humbly to stop with the Imran threads, no matter what aspect of his career is being discussed. That is not to say you can't comment on Imran or vote for him in some thread. Just remember, all things are better in moderation.

Thanks for your views about me & in the future I'll try not to start so many Imran threads as I've started to realize that it becomes annoying.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

He played in those years as a batsman who could bowl,not as a specialist bowler.

 

[Fusion]

You dont win World cup because of one person, But If one person can be given credit for Pakistan's world up win then it would be Wasim Akram. Imran's role in the WC win is over-rated.

He constructed and led that team. I have zero doubt in my mind that if Imran wasn't the Captain of that team, Pakistan never would've won the WC. Consider this, IMO the 1999 team led by Wasim had far more talent then the '92 team. However, the team collapsed in the final like a school side to Australia. That is the difference that a leader with resolve makes, which Imran was. Besides, even in the '92 cup, Imran wasn't just selected as Captain (though that would've been ok in my book), he contributed greatly as a batsman.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Last Century Botham hit was in 1986 - Between 1986-92 he was crap just Like Imran was between 1971-1977. But you seem to ignore that period for Imran but never forget to bring it to our attention that Botham was crap for almost half of his career. So much for being fair to both the parties.

Imran played just ignorable number of tests between 1971-1976 as compared to what Botham did 1986 onwards.

 

[subshakerz]

Last Century Botham hit was in 1986 - Between 1986-92 he was crap just Like Imran was between 1971-1977. But you seem to ignore that period for Imran but never forget to bring it to our attention that Botham was crap for almost half of his career. So much for being fair to both the parties.

Two things:

• Imran's breakout series was against Australia in 76-77. Before that, he was crap but had hardly played any cricket.
  
• Botham's last century was in '86, but his decline began much before that, around the period following the '81 Ashes. He wasn't completely crap, just inconsistent.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

So how do you come to the conclusion that Imran is much better bowler than Miller ?

Imran achieved much more as a bowler,more wickets per match,better strike rate & took much more 5 & 10 wicket hauls,Miller did play 33 less tests than but even then the difference in 5 & 10 wicket hauls shouldn't have been that great if they were really close as bowlers.Imran was the first ever truly successful fast bowler to come out of Subcontinent which is known as graveyard of fast bowlers.Although,Miller also played on some flat but he also who got the chance to bowl on uncovered wickets.Miller had some great fast bowlers from his country to follow their footsteps but there was no such case for Imran.If there was no Imran,there would've been no Wasim & Waqar.These are the some reasons I have in mind atm.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

I have never read one 'expert' say that Khan was a much better bowler than Miller, can you find me a quote?

When they speak of Imran as one othe greatest bowlers ever much more than they do Miller means that they rate Imran Khan as a much better bowler than Miller.

 

[andmark]

Imran Khan was better than Miller imo.

 

[Sanz]

He constructed and led that team. I have zero doubt in my mind that if Imran wasn't the Captain of that team, Pakistan never would've won the WC. Consider this, IMO the 1999 team led by Wasim had far more talent then the '92 team. However, the team collapsed in the final like a school side to Australia. That is the difference that a leader with resolve makes, which Imran was. Besides, even in the '92 cup, Imran wasn't just selected as Captain (though that would've been ok in my book), he contributed greatly as a batsman.

Its a fallacy that Imran contributed greatly as a batsman in the World Cup. Yes he played a good knock in the finals but that's about it. His performance in rest of the tournament was average. Also I disagree about the 99 team being more talented than the 92 one.

Yes Imran deserves the credit for leading and inspiring his team and I give him all that and its possible(50/50) that Pak would not have won it without him, but IMO his contribution to that win both as captain and as batsman is highly overstated merely because Pak won the world cup.

IMO The win was made possible due to a. some excellent individual performances by Wasim and Inzi and solid b.consistent batting by Javed miandad throughout the tournament c. Luck d. Imran's contribution as captain.

 

[Sanz]

Imran achieved much more as a bowler,more wickets per match,better strike rate & took much more 5 & 10 wicket hauls,Miller did play 33 less tests than but even then the difference in 5 & 10 wicket hauls shouldn't have been that great if they were really close as bowlers.Imran was the first ever truly successful fast bowler to come out of Subcontinent which is known as graveyard of fast bowlers.Although,Miller also played on some flat but he also who got the chance to bowl on uncovered wickets.Miller had some great fast bowlers from his country to follow their footsteps but there was no such case for Imran.If there was no Imran,there would've been no Wasim & Waqar.These are the some reasons I have in mind atm.

I am sick of hearing all these excuses and sorry reasons like Subcontinent is the graveyard for fast bowlers, hence Imran should get an extra credit. Imran was the first fast ever truly succeessful fast bowler from subcontinent hence he should get a bonus point, Without Imran there would be no Wasim Waqar etc hence Imran should get an extra point.