*Official* Australia in decline thread

[Pratters]

I think we might have a warped view of what constitutes a 'good bowler'. Zaheer was a good bowler in England, and maybe he can keep it up. RP Singh is passable, and I wouldn't put him much above mediocre. The others are not remotely Test class.

Ya I agree. We might indeed be having a warped view but I differ on who is having that warped view.

 

[Pratters]

I wouldn't call some good recent performances leaps and bounds tbh (my words, which is what we're discussing) and I never said, to my knowledge that they hadn't made progress, I said no one has been rapidly improving.

I can safely say that nearly every other side has seemed to drop off as well

I asked 'India?' So how have India dropped off?

On top of that, you're losing 4 of the best players in the side soon so imo the future isn't bright. And as I said, I don't really rate the replacements, or what I've seen of them, either. I think this is as good as it gets for this side and it's not that good to begin with tbh.

Again, I haven't been countering any thing regarding future aspects.

Wrt to you being optimistic, it's how you rate this current bunch and their replacements.

As I said, I don't know about the future of the side as a whole.

To reiterate my initial point though, based on recent efforts and what we've seen together with what sides are going to lose, there is no evidence Australia won't be as dominant as before. That was what my first post here was talking about.

I am talking of the current though and in the current Australia have lost 3 top players while a team like India haven't. Losing class bowlers like McGrath, Warne would hurt any side to some degree. This when a side like India has improved (though the degree would vary on the basis of individual opinions). I am not countering your opinion that there is no evidence to suggest Australia wont be as dominant mind. There is no evidence indeed. India might lose 4-0 for all we know. The basis though, is some thing I don't agree with as right now (Even if we forget the subjectivity improvement aspect of India), Australia have lost star players but other like say India, Sri Lanka haven't. How potent the Dravids, Tendulkars and Kumbles of the world will be though is another subjective issue and you might not rate them very highly right now and if that's the basis, it would be a fair enough point of view. Lets not talk about other players from other teams retiring for we never know who will retire when. Jayasuriya is still playing cricket and not long ago, Lara and Inzamam played till they were 38ish.

 

[silentstriker]

Ya I agree. We might indeed be having a warped view but I differ on who is having that warped view.

Perhaps. Regardless, RP Singh's average in tests is still over 30. Munaf Patel played a full series in WI but was hardly exceptional, and keeps breaking down since, and we all know about Sreesanth's complete unreliability. I really don't see how you can make a good attack out of those. Even your best bowler has really been great for one series, and if past results are any guide, he won't be for much longer. But even conceding that Zaheer has turned into a good bowler, there is not much else there.

 

[pasag]

I asked 'India?' So how have India dropped off?



Again, I haven't been countering any thing regarding future aspects.



As I said, I don't know about the future of the side as a whole.



I am talking of the current though and in the current Australia have lost 3 top players while a team like India haven't. Losing class bowlers like McGrath, Warne would hurt any side to some degree. This when a side like India has improved (though the degree would vary on the basis of individual opinions). I am not countering your opinion that there is no evidence to suggest Australia wont be as dominant mind. There is no evidence indeed. India might lose 4-0 for all we know. The basis though, is some thing I don't agree with as right now (Even if we forget the subjectivity improvement aspect of India), Australia have lost star players but other like say India, Sri Lanka haven't. How potent the Dravids, Tendulkars and Kumbles of the world will be though is another subjective issue and you might not rate them very highly right now and if that's the basis, it would be a fair enough point of view. Lets not talk about other players from other teams retiring for we never know who will retire when. Jayasuriya is still playing cricket and not long ago, Lara and Inzamam played till they were 38ish.

Again, I haven't been countering any thing regarding future aspects.

As I said, I don't know about the future of the side as a whole.

We'll as I thought from the begining, we're discussing two different things then and not on the same wavelength and the goalposts on what we're discussing seem to have been moved. I've made clear my point a few times now. You're telling me not to look to the future and saying you're talking about the current when it is my comments we're discussing.

And when did I say India have dropped off?

 

[Sanz]

You're telling me not to look to the future and saying you're talking about the current when it is my comments we're discussing.

I guess he is telling you to not look too far in the future. And in the immediate future (next 2-3 years) India aren't going to lose anyone, atleast no indications have been given by Sachin, Sourav, Rahul & Anil.

 

[Pratters]

Perhaps. Regardless, RP Singh's average in tests is still over 30. Munaf Patel played a full series in WI but was hardly exceptional, and keeps breaking down since, and we all know about Sreesanth's complete unreliability. I really don't see how you can make a good attack out of those. Even your best bowler has really been great for one series, and if past results are any guide, he won't be for much longer. But even conceding that Zaheer has turned into a good bowler, there is not much else there.

In my post, I didn't talk about the averages...

I take it that you have not watched that much of Munaf... RP btw I rate pretty highly and would back him for even the near future. We might disagree on RP though. That is three good pacers right there though for mine.

RP is a pretty good bowler for mine. Munaf has had his set backs with injury yes but I would consider him a very good bowler. I hope he isn't one of the quite few fast bowlers world cricket has lost because of injuries in recent times. Sreesanth is not good right now, yes (for whatever reasons). I wasn't talking about him in the RP-Zaheer-Munaf bracket though. Essentially, we disagree RP is just passable and not good and Munaf is not even test standard compared to me believing his is good as well.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Difference between calling someone "very good" and a "very good prospect". Mitchell Johnson is a very good prospect, Stuart Clark is a very good bowler.

For mine;

Sree and RP Singh are good prospects. Thus far they've been average bowlers.
Zaheer is a pretty good Test bowler.

I guess he is telling you to not look too far in the future. And in the immediate future (next 2-3 years) India aren't going to lose anyone, atleast no indications have been given by Sachin, Sourav, Rahul & Anil.

About a year ago, I think some Australians would have been saying that about Warne, McGrath and Langer.

 

[pasag]

I guess he is telling you to not look too far in the future. And in the immediate future (next 2-3 years) India aren't going to lose anyone, atleast no indications have been given by Sachin, Sourav, Rahul & Anil.

I don't think that they'll be around for much longer tbh (my speculation). If you say that they will and will perform and become a force over the next few years that's fair enough. But I don't think they will and certainly not on a level to hurt Australia's dominance, imo.

It's a two part thing with India, one imo they wont be around for much longer and two the new ones don't inspire much confidence in me. That's not to say that they haven't performed admirably in say England, or that they wont continue to win games, but I don't see the making of a force (even if this side stays together for a while), imo.

 

[pasag]

About a year ago, I think some Australians would have been saying that about Warne, McGrath and Langer.

Yeah, that's where alot of my skepticism over ageing players is coming from.

 

[vic_orthdox]

India in Test cricket (since the WC), sort of remind me of New Zealand. It seems as though, rather than any consistent output from one player, someone seems to bob up each match, or maybe one series, and do well. With no-one in career best form, or setting the world alight with their figures over a year, they are still winning their fair share of matches.

 

[Pratters]

And when did I say India have dropped off?

You said -

I can safely say that nearly every other side has seemed to drop off as well

along with other points. I did counter you questioning about India and got the impression that among other things you are saying India have dropped off as well as you didn't counter it with any thing.

We'll as I thought from the begining, we're discussing two different things then and not on the same wavelength and the goalposts on what we're discussing seem to have been moved. I've made clear my point a few times now. You're telling me not to look to the future and saying you're talking about the current when it is my comments we're discussing.

Maybe we aren't on the same wavelength yeah. I don't see that the goal posts have been moved though. You based your view on basis and I don't think that the basis is proper. Who is to say which players will be around for how long and who might come to replace them. When Sampras retired, Federer started shining.

 

[Sanz]

India in Test cricket (since the WC), sort of remind me of New Zealand. It seems as though, rather than any consistent output from one player, someone seems to bob up each match, or maybe one series, and do well. With no-one in career best form, or setting the world alight with their figures over a year, they are still winning their fair share of matches.

Strange, because I was thinking about pretty much same thing and was about to make a post.

 

[vic_orthdox]

pasag used the word "nearly" for a reason.

EDIT: to Pratyush.

EDIT ii: The other point is where you take the decline from. Some may consier that India were probably a better team around 2004 or so than what they are now. But they're probably in better shape than in parts of 2005 and 2006.

 

[pasag]

You said - along with other points. I did counter you questioning about India and got the impression that among other things you are saying India have dropped off as well as you didn't counter it with any thing.



Maybe we aren't on the same wavelength yeah. I don't see that the goal posts have been moved though. You based your view on basis and I don't think that the basis is proper. Who is to say which players will be around for how long and who might come to replace them. When Sampras retired, Federer started shining.

along with other points. I did counter you questioning about India and got the impression that among other things you are saying India have dropped off as well as you didn't counter it with any thing.

Well as I said, they have improved and have done well but the point was more regarding the 'leaps and bounds' comment. The nearly all other sides comment was more throw away and not what I wanted to focus on. SL and SA haven't dropped off either and India certainly haven't.

 

[Sanz]

About a year ago, I think some Australians would have been saying that about Warne, McGrath and Langer.

I know but Australia have not played a single test since their retirement. I still want to see a few things such as who is going to open with Hayden, who is going to be their go-to spinner and how are Lee, Clark and co. going to respond without Mcgrath and Warne.

That said I am not saying that Australia are going to be less dominant but I think its a fair question to raise at least for test matches.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I know but Australia have not played a single test since their retirement. I still want to see a few things such as who is going to open with Hayden, who is going to be their go-to spinner and how are Lee, Clark and co. going to respond without Mcgrath and Warne.

That said I am not saying that Australia are going to be less dominant but I think its a fair question to raise at least for test matches.

I was more referring to the actual prediction you made, about how there are no signs of retirement from Sachin/Sourav etc. There weren't signs popping up everywhere about the retirement of our players, until after the Ashes.

 

[silentstriker]

In my post, I didn't talk about the averages...

But it's a very relevant thing when talking about someone being good or bad.

 

[Pratters]

Difference between calling someone "very good" and a "very good prospect". Mitchell Johnson is a very good prospect, Stuart Clark is a very good bowler.

For mine;

Sree and RP Singh are good prospects. Thus far they've been average bowlers.
Zaheer is a pretty good Test bowler.

You can call some one good (bowler) despite him having great averages to show for it for mine by seeing and analysing the bowler in detail.

 

[Pratters]

But it's a very relevant thing when talking about someone being good or bad.

Not necessarily if the sample size is too small.

 

[vic_orthdox]

You can call some one good (bowler) despite him having great averages to show for it for mine seeing and analysing the bowler in detail.

I'm sure there's some sort of punctuation mark missing that will help me understand that sentence better, but oh well.

Someone who hasn't routinely performed at the highest level can only be called a good prospect, IMO. Sree and RP haven't done that, but have the potential to.