Andrew Symonds is at fault himself

[Sanz]

It seems that he is wearing a Brazil Soccer Jersey and that itself is enough to convince me that he is an Indian.

 

[Richard]

I really have no opinion on the merits of the other poster, but I would caution against pontificating quite SO vociferously, particularly on the subject of intentionally "winding other posters up".

Your constant habit of using the classic weasel words (such as "unless you have no knowledge of the game, you would agree..." or "you would have to be an idiot to think that this isn't the case" or the like) to further your argument, is far more a slight on other posters, and is infinitely more damaging to healthy discussion than one-eyed banter and any lack of humility in defeat- which, frankly, are absolutely endemic on these boards from posters of all nationalities. This is a board that deals with a sport where teams represent nations rather than just clubs- You have to expect that a good amount of the posters are going to have their rose-coloured glasses on, and to be forgiving to a fault when their own team is in the firing line.

(A prime example of which would be the notion that a guy who is being racially taunted "is himself to blame". The problem exists with more than just the one poster.)

I have no issue with you- you seem like a pretty knowledgeable type and you're certainly a dab-hand at generating statistics and obscure facts. I would just suggest that you turn the focus inward before you start preaching. Otherwise, it could be seen as a bit do-as-I-say, which, you may recall, is a real pet hate of mine.

Also, I don't understand why you seem to want to argue honestbharani's points for him. I have only interacted with him once (that I recall, at least), but he seems like a pretty intelligent, coherent, friendly sort of bloke, and he seems perfectly able to get across his point on his own. Let the man express his own mind, y'know?

I'm honestly not trying to have a crack at you, but I really don't know if this is the sort of topic you should be judging others on.

I wouldn't claim myself to be a shining beacon of virtuity, certainly not, but that shouldn't really mean I can't try to give friendly advice.

Incidentally, I don't recall ever saying "unless you have no knowledge of the game, you would agree..." or indeed anything along those lines (at least not for quite a while). And while I do say "you would have to be an idiot to think that this isn't the case" or similar every now and then, it's usually for things along the lines of Bradman being the best batsman of all-time.

As regards hbh - yes, I do stick-up for him of times. I don't try to argue for him, merely to defend him against what I see as unreasonable stick. Others do the same for me sometimes; others do the same for others sometimes; it's pretty unavoidable-trait-of-humanity stuff IMO. People who like each other stick together.

 

[R_D]

The one in the yellow doesn't look Indian from what you can see of him, could be the same one from this photo getting evicted:

looks Indian to me mate.. i've seen the picture from front and there was another guy alongside him. It was only 2 of them caught on the photograph.

 

[R_D]

I suppose the British colonists had no feelings of racial hatred for the native people.

Nor iirc, the conquering aryans when they originally established the caste system.

You do realise that whole consqering aryan theory was cooked up by some British guy to further provide the proof of the Europeans being superior to Indians and i believe he retracted that theory after sometime as well.

 

[Sanz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykmJ2941z10&mode=user&search=

 

[archie mac]

I really have no opinion on the merits of the other poster, but I would caution against pontificating quite SO vociferously, particularly on the subject of intentionally "winding other posters up".

Your constant habit of using the classic weasel words (such as "unless you have no knowledge of the game, you would agree..." or "you would have to be an idiot to think that this isn't the case" or the like) to further your argument, is far more a slight on other posters, and is infinitely more damaging to healthy discussion than one-eyed banter and any lack of humility in defeat- which, frankly, are absolutely endemic on these boards from posters of all nationalities. This is a board that deals with a sport where teams represent nations rather than just clubs- You have to expect that a good amount of the posters are going to have their rose-coloured glasses on, and to be forgiving to a fault when their own team is in the firing line.

(A prime example of which would be the notion that a guy who is being racially taunted "is himself to blame". The problem exists with more than just the one poster.)

I have no issue with you- you seem like a pretty knowledgeable type and you're certainly a dab-hand at generating statistics and obscure facts. I would just suggest that you turn the focus inward before you start preaching. Otherwise, it could be seen as a bit do-as-I-say, which, you may recall, is a real pet hate of mine.

Also, I don't understand why you seem to want to argue honestbharani's points for him. I have only interacted with him once (that I recall, at least), but he seems like a pretty intelligent, coherent, friendly sort of bloke, and he seems perfectly able to get across his point on his own. Let the man express his own mind, y'know?

I'm honestly not trying to have a crack at you, but I really don't know if this is the sort of topic you should be judging others on.

Not that I am agreeing with any of the above, but would like to say it is well written, and lets hope you can start posting a little more often

 

[archie mac]

I really think the Indian supporters need to learn the Aussie chant, if they would have done this then no one (in Aust. at least) would have a problem

The Chant:

Symonds is a wanker, Symonds is a wanker, Symonds is a wanker

 

[shortpitched713]

You do realise that whole consqering aryan theory was cooked up by some British guy to further provide the proof of the Europeans being superior to Indians and i believe he retracted that theory after sometime as well.

The former of the statements still stands. And I do believe that they were in India at the time.

 

[silentstriker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykmJ2941z10&mode=user&search=

Haha, why is that guy clicking around on a laptop while the news is live?

 

[honestbharani]

The former of the statements still stands. And I do believe that they were in India at the time.

u mean?

 

[sirdj]

But racism doesn't exist in India remember!

What makes you such an expert on India/Indians or Indian culture in the first place??

Although India has religious bias(hindu-muslim riots, sardarji's go crazy at 12'o clock),
colour bias(fairer girls are more attractive),
regional bias(everyone from the south are madrasi's),
language bias(southern states refuse to adopt the national language),
state bias(the bengali's supporting Ganguly when he needed to be dropped),
caste bias(which is the worst),
social or money bias(old money v/s nouveau riche)

But racism in the form of what exists in the Western countries does not exist in India. They don't abuse foreigner's and tell them to go back home. They don't go around beating up local Chinese or Westerners, and they don't consider themselves superior to any other race(but they do think that they are more cultured).

What happened with Symonds should not be compared to racial taunts in European football matches but more with when the Indian fans in Canada were teasing Inzy by calling him an Aloo(Potato). Animal insults in India are quite regular (monkey, donkey, goat, dog, buffalo etc). The Indian fans had just found something that they thought got under Symond's skin and were trying to get at him.

 

[SJS]

What makes you such an expert on India/Indians or Indian culture in the first place??

Although India has religious bias(hindu-muslim riots, sardarji's go crazy at 12'o clock),
colour bias(fairer girls are more attractive),
regional bias(everyone from the south are madrasi's),
language bias(southern states refuse to adopt the national language),
state bias(the bengali's supporting Ganguly when he needed to be dropped),
caste bias(which is the worst),
social or money bias(old money v/s nouveau riche)

But racism in the form of what exists in the Western countries does not exist in India. They don't abuse foreigner's and tell them to go back home. They don't go around beating up local Chinese or Westerners, and they don't consider themselves superior to any other race(but they do think that they are more cultured).

What happened with Symonds should not be compared to racial taunts in European football matches but more with when the Indian fans in Canada were teasing Inzy by calling him an Aloo(Potato). Animal insults in India are quite regular (monkey, donkey, goat, dog, buffalo etc). The Indian fans had just found something that they thought got under Symond's skin and were trying to get at him.

Well said

 

[pup11]

A few Indian supporters have behaved pathetically in this series and racism is not the only issue here but as Ricky said the way the crowds have behaved has left a bad taste to everyone's mouth throwing bottles and flashing banners like Symonds sucks asshole and Go home monkey face, etc are completly uncalled for and as Symonds said that he isn't disappointed that the whole incident happened but the fact that even the BCCI administrators refused and denied that such a thing happened has disappointed him.
If BCCI would have taken some steps to punish the guilty idiots after the Baroda game itself then maybe the incident in Mumbai could have been avoided.
All of us are just thinking that Symonds was called a monkey by a few people in the crowd, but a lot worse things could have been said by the crowd which couldn't even be mentioned in public.

 

[Pratters]

the way the crowds have behaved has left a bad taste to everyone's mouth throwing bottles and flashing banners like Symonds sucks asshole

Haha.

 

[honestbharani]

A few Indian supporters have behaved pathetically in this series and racism is not the only issue here but as Ricky said the way the crowds have behaved has left a bad taste to everyone's mouth throwing bottles and flashing banners like Symonds sucks asshole and Go home monkey face, etc are completly uncalled for and as Symonds said that he isn't disappointed that the whole incident happened but the fact that even the BCCI administrators refused and denied that such a thing happened has disappointed him.
If BCCI would have taken some steps to punish the guilty idiots after the Baroda game itself then maybe the incident in Mumbai could have been avoided.
All of us are just thinking that Symonds was called a monkey by a few people in the crowd, but a lot worse things could have been said by the crowd which couldn't even be mentioned in public.

And you think that doesn't happen in other countries when we tour over there? And yes, MAYBE a lot worse was said but also MAYBE a lot less was said. And given the way Symonds has gone about during this tour, I genuinely he could be blowing things out of proportions too. He probably thinks it is a good way to get under the skins of India as well...


And again, crowd sledging the players has happened elsewhere quite often, and in my experience, it is actually lesser in India compared to some other places. And again, what Symonds did in the tour means that he won't be endearing himself to any Indian fan. So while some of them may have gone overboard, the majority were simply booing him all the time and for Ponting to complain about that (same with Symonds) was laughable, really... If you are a sportsman and you say mean things about the home country and its team when you are on tour, you should expect to get booed.


None of what I said above is to condone the pathetic behaviour by the few who (if and when) they did behave that way. But it doesn't mean whatever the Aussie team and its players say is gospel. And it doesn't mean they haven't been at fault at all. Haven't you ever seen the boos that greet Afridi and the chants that greet Akhtar here. Heck, even Wasim Akram was booed like anything at one point. Symonds is not exactly better than these guys either.... And he has gone one step beyond if he did mean that the hospitality in India was lacking or whatever...

 

[SJS]

I think the issue is not about whether there is rasicm in India or not, what comes under the purview of rasicm and what doesn't but that unacceptable crowd behaviour should be tackled firmly and the action should be deterrent.

The sensationalism of the media (whether it is the Australian press exaggerating what happened or the Indian media going hammer and tongs on who is the pot and who the kettle) should be kept aside when looking at the fact that what is objectionable does and must start with the perceptions of the one at the recieving end. If a Murali or a Gibbs feels something said to them by the Aussie crowds was offensive to their sensibilities it should be taken into account for the future as should the feelings of a Symonds irrespective of what we Indians feel should or should not hurt his feelings.

By debating on whether there is racism in India, what form it takes and Indians defending the crowds we are just digressing from the main issue that a player's sensibilities should be kept in mind at least once he has expressed how he feels.

Secondly to first say the crowd was chanting Ganpathi Bappa Morya (for the elephant God Ganesh) and later that these were monkey chants invoking the monkey God Hanuman is trying to be too clever by half.

I am almost 58 and have lived entirely in India and both in the North and in Mumbai. No one EVER makes 'monkey chants' or acts like a jumping monkey to invoke Hanuman. Lets not make a mockery of the whole thing by trying to be patently dishonest.

I do not have any problems with crowds making monkey noises and jumping up and down because I have seen them do worse things and because I may never have put a racist slant to it or thought of what it might mean. It seemed a harmless fun thing to do but when pointed out and taken in context with Symonds background the least we can do is to put a stop to it for the future and apologise for what happened irrespective of intentions and move on.

Pawar is not doing a great job by talking of language issues nor is the media on both sides by sensationalising something that could easily have been better handled.

Everything need not become a prestige issue calling for defensive postures and you are-worse-than-us attitude, but everyone, authorities, media and fane, including those of this forum, seem to find no other way to look at it.

Its a sorry state of affairs.

 

[sideshowtim]

What makes you such an expert on India/Indians or Indian culture in the first place??

Although India has religious bias(hindu-muslim riots, sardarji's go crazy at 12'o clock),
colour bias(fairer girls are more attractive),
regional bias(everyone from the south are madrasi's),
language bias(southern states refuse to adopt the national language),
state bias(the bengali's supporting Ganguly when he needed to be dropped),
caste bias(which is the worst),
social or money bias(old money v/s nouveau riche)

But racism in the form of what exists in the Western countries does not exist in India. They don't abuse foreigner's and tell them to go back home. They don't go around beating up local Chinese or Westerners, and they don't consider themselves superior to any other race(but they do think that they are more cultured).

What happened with Symonds should not be compared to racial taunts in European football matches but more with when the Indian fans in Canada were teasing Inzy by calling him an Aloo(Potato). Animal insults in India are quite regular (monkey, donkey, goat, dog, buffalo etc). The Indian fans had just found something that they thought got under Symond's skin and were trying to get at him.

I am not an expert on India. I am not an expert on Luxembourg either but I can guarantee you that racism has existed there in some shape or form. Trying to deny the existence of ANY racism at all in any country is just ignorant. Absolutely ignorant.

Animal insults may be quite common in India, but Symonds seemed to be the only Australian team member to be the target of them, and they were constantly the SAME animal. This isn't a conicidence. This is racism. Even look in the cricbuzz chats when games are on. I've seen Symonds described as monkey, ****** and so forth on there by Indian fans. And caste and colour 'bias' is just a nice word for racism. If I say black people suck, that's a colour bias. It's still racism.

 

[sideshowtim]

And you think that doesn't happen in other countries when we tour over there? And yes, MAYBE a lot worse was said but also MAYBE a lot less was said. And given the way Symonds has gone about during this tour, I genuinely he could be blowing things out of proportions too. He probably thinks it is a good way to get under the skins of India as well...

You think Symonds is lying about being racially abused? I'm sorry, but I just don't think professional sportsmen do that kind of thing for the sole purpose of geeing up their opponents. He has never complained about it before, so I hardly think it is simply to get under the Indians skin. And the fact that there is photographic and video evidence of racist behaviour just further shows this point to be poor and irrelevant.

And again, crowd sledging the players has happened elsewhere quite often, and in my experience, it is actually lesser in India compared to some other places. And again, what Symonds did in the tour means that he won't be endearing himself to any Indian fan. So while some of them may have gone overboard, the majority were simply booing him all the time and for Ponting to complain about that (same with Symonds) was laughable, really... If you are a sportsman and you say mean things about the home country and its team when you are on tour, you should expect to get booed.

I don't think anyone denies this. No one is complaining that they are getting booed. They are complaining of racial abuse, which is unacceptable in society as far as I'm concerned. Booing and racial abuse are very, very different things. How can you not see that?

None of what I said above is to condone the pathetic behaviour by the few who (if and when) they did behave that way. But it doesn't mean whatever the Aussie team and its players say is gospel. And it doesn't mean they haven't been at fault at all. Haven't you ever seen the boos that greet Afridi and the chants that greet Akhtar here. Heck, even Wasim Akram was booed like anything at one point. Symonds is not exactly better than these guys either.... And he has gone one step beyond if he did mean that the hospitality in India was lacking or whatever...

Racial abuse is nobody's fault but the idiot abuser. I'm sorry, you don't bring on racial abuse yourself. Symonds may have brought on contempt from the Indian fans in the form of booing or witty signs directed at him...And I accept this, and agree that if a player is going to make public comments which may be controversial he should prepare to cop some of this. But racial abuse is on a whole other level.

 

[pup11]

Give me a break Hb what makes you think Symonds is blowing things out of proportion he hasn't even talked about this issue much in the press and he only said he was disappointed when he heard some officials have denied that such an incident has taken place, he hasn't even made an official complaint about this incident.
Yeah i agree that such incidents do happen in other places too but there the concerned board or body takes the required action as quickly as possible, but in BCCI's case the board president himself and some officials just denied the whole incident saying that Symonds misunderstood something due to language problem, now how professional is that and i dare say if the photographer won't have caught the guilty morons on camera no action would still have taken place and BCCI would have kept on denying such an incident.

 

[social]

I think is not about whether there is rasicm in India or not, what comes under the purview of rasicm and what doesn't but that unacceptable crowd behaviour should be tackled firmly and the action should be deterrent.

The sensationalism of the media (whether it is the Australian press exaggerating what happened or the Indian media going hammer and tongs on who is the pot and who the kettle) should be kept aside when looking at the fact that what is objectionable does and must start with the perceptions of the one at the recieving end. If a Murali or a Gibbs feels something said to them by the Aussie crowds was offensive to their sensibilities it should be taken into account for the future as should the feelings of a Symonds irrespective of what we Indians feel should or should not hurt his feelings.

By debating on whether there is racism in India, what form it takes and Indians defending the crowds we are just digressing from the main issue that a player's sensibilities should be kept in mind at least once he has expressed how he feels.

Secondly to first say the crowd was chanting Ganpathi Bappa Morya (for the elephant God Ganesh) and later that these were monkey chants invoking the monkey God Hanuman is trying to be too clever by half.

I am almost 58 and have lived entirely in India and both in the North and in Mumbai. No one EVER makes 'monkey chants' or acts like a jumping monkey to invoke Hanuman. Lets not make a mockery of the whole thing by trying to be patently dishonest.

I do not have any problems with crowds making monkey noises and jumping up and down because I have seen them do worse things and because I may never have put a racist slant to it or thought of what it might mean. It seemed a harmless fun thing to do but when pointed out and taken in context with Symonds background the least we can do is to put a stop to it for the future and apologise for what happened irrespective of intentions and move on.

Pawar is not doing a great job by talking of language issues nor is the media on both sides by sensationalising something that could easily have been better handled.

Everything need not become a prestige issue calling for defensive postures and you are-worse-than-us attitude, but everyone, authorities, media and fane, including those of this forum, seem to find no other way to look at it.

Its a sorry state of affairs.

Excellent post

Indian authorities (and some posters here) are arguing semantics to defend their country whilst Oz press is looking to beat things up to sell papers

Bottom line is that behaviour of some was unacceptable and the Indian authorities need to implement policies that are in place world-wide (and required by the ICC) to restore any semblance of credibility