Best Test Bowler(s) since 2000

[Ikki]

*sigh* I can't argue with your stats, because they aren't changed. However as a viewer of both spinners against my beloved Black Caps, I'm more worried about Murali than Warne. The "x factor" if you like, is greater IMO. I just think he is more destructive.

Doesn't this have its own thread yet where we can beat the hell out of this argument? Because its never ending

(I'm not trying to snub or ignore you BTW, i just feel this is an unwinnable argument for both points of view)

Aren't changed?

I think it's a fair point to rate players against your home sides. It's your own prerogative on what you think is important and what you don't. I am not trying to change your opinion I am just sharing my observations. If you think they're good and valuable, great, if you don't then don't agree. Why is it being made out as if I am fighting here?

 

[iamdavid]

Murali first....Warne and McGrath neck and neck.....then daylight......then Shoaib/Kumble/Flintoff/Ntini

 

[Athlai]

I don't think bowling at home does help him that much. Because he spins it so much he can turn in on anything.

As his average outside of the subcontinent not playing a minnow is 22 you'd be right.

 

[Athlai]

Aren't changed?

I think it's a fair point to rate players against your home sides. It's your own prerogative on what you think is important and what you don't. I am not trying to change your opinion I am just sharing my observations. If you think they're good and valuable, great, if you don't then don't agree. Why is it being made out as if I am fighting here?

Because sharing your views becomes a 'fight' as soon as it becomes a discussion, one for the one side and one for the other.

X- "Nice weather we're having."
Y- "Not really."

^ Observation and views.

X - "Yes it is."
Y- "No really it isn't, it was much better last week when I was in Fiji."

^ Argument

X- "Fiji's had some real troubles lately."
Y- "Yeah."

^ Observation and views.

 

[Ikki]

I don't think bowling at home does help him that much. Because he spins it so much he can turn in on anything.

It evidently does, otherwise there wouldn't be such a noticeable drop, over the span of 100+ tests. It doesn't all have to do with simply spinning the ball a long way.

LOL, but this debate aside, I find it funny how career away figures here mean so little for you - someone who makes wholesale comments on the careers of players because of, for e.g., a technical flaw in their batting - because you see that Murali has the ability to spin it away from home. Yet everyone and their grandmother knew Lillee had the tools to succeed in the sub-continent and you say even not considering 3 tests that you can make such a definitive statement that Lillee CANNOT be considered the greatest.

Nevermind, don't want to bring in old arguments here. But if you don't agree and want to discuss, discuss. If you don't agree and don't want to discuss, don't. Don't tell me I can't or shouldn't or imply I have an agenda because I do.

 

[Ikki]

Because sharing your views becomes a 'fight' as soon as it becomes a discussion, one for the one side and one for the other.

X- "Nice weather we're having."
Y- "Not really."

^ Observation and views.

X - "Yes it is."
Y- "No really it isn't, it was much better last week when I was in Fiji."

^ Argument

X- "Fiji's had some real troubles lately."
Y- "Yeah."

^ Observation and views.

To me, it's more like:

X - This summer is hotter than the last one.
Y - Yeah, but you know why though? They say it's because of global warming.

 

[Richard]

It evidently does, otherwise there wouldn't be such a noticeable drop, over the span of 100+ tests. It doesn't all have to do with simply spinning the ball a long way.

LOL, but this debate aside, I find it funny how career away figures here mean so little for you - someone who makes wholesale comments on the careers of players because of, for e.g., a technical flaw in their batting - because you see that Murali has the ability to spin it away from home. Yet everyone and their grandmother knew Lillee had the tools to succeed in the sub-continent and you say even not considering 3 tests that you can make such a definitive statement that Lillee CANNOT be considered the greatest.

Nevermind, don't want to bring in old arguments here. But if you don't agree and want to discuss, discuss. If you don't agree and don't want to discuss, don't. Don't tell me I can't or shouldn't or imply I have an agenda because I do.

I've tried not to.

As I say - if Murali's career figures outside the subcontinent were poor, it'd mean something to me. They're not, though. The only places Murali has failed are in Australia and, curiously, Zimbabwe (when they were Test-class). He has done equally superbly in West Indies, South Africa, New Zealand and England as he has in the subcontinent. The reason for this is obvious - he has little reliance on the type of surface the match is being played on.

 

[Ikki]

I've tried not to.

As I say - if Murali's career figures outside the subcontinent were poor, it'd mean something to me. They're not, though. The only places Murali has failed are in Australia and, curiously, Zimbabwe (when they were Test-class). He has done equally superbly in West Indies, South Africa, New Zealand and England as he has in the subcontinent. The reason for this is obvious - he has little reliance on the type of surface the match is being played on.

The same with the other two bowlers. You're digressing if you think someone here is saying Murali is poor because his noticeable drop is because he is bowling away. That's crap and no one is or can argue that. What it means is that he is not as good away as he is at home, and that has plenty to do with a lot of factors, not least the pitch. They're still very good figures, just not as good as they would be otherwise.

 

[Athlai]

The same with the other two bowlers. You're digressing if you think someone here is saying Murali is poor because his noticeable drop is because he is bowling away. That's crap and no one is or can argue that. What it means is that he is not as good away as he is at home, and that has plenty to do with a lot of factors, not least the pitch. They're still very good figures, just not as good as they would be otherwise.

Aren't most bowlers figures better at home?

 

[Richard]

The same with the other two bowlers. You're digressing if you think someone here is saying Murali is poor because his noticeable drop is because he is bowling away. That's crap and no one is or can argue that. What it means is that he is not as good away as he is at home, and that has plenty to do with a lot of factors, not least the pitch. They're still very good figures, just not as good as they would be otherwise.

As I say - I'm not bothered about the other two bowlers, not once have I said any of the three bowlers who are clearly head-and-shoulders above the others in the "flat pitch era" are better than one another.

All my comments in this thread have been aimed at is defending Murali against what I see as unfair criticism. I feel his figures are awesome - as are McGrath's and Warne's. This is all.

 

[Ikki]

Aren't most bowlers figures better at home?

No, Warne's are actually better AWAY. In Australia, besides Sydney there are no good spinning pitches! That's one of the main arguments here. You give Warne Murali's home figures (even though his figures are better than Murali's) and give Murali Warne's home figures (even though Murali's is worse in Australia) and you get a completely different picture.

This is why I rate Warne so highly. He bowled on mostly seam-friendly pitches and did what he did.

BTW McGrath does better away too. Probably why I rate him 2nd amongst other things too.

 

[Athlai]

If Warne were Sri Lanka his figures would likely be a fair amount lower too.

 

[Athlai]

No, Warne's are actually better AWAY. In Australia, besides Sydney there are no good spinning pitches! That's one of the main arguments here. You give Warne Murali's home figures (even though his figures are better than Murali's) and give Murali Warne's home figures (even though Murali's is worse in Australia) and you get a completely different picture.

This is why I rate Warne so highly. He bowled on mostly seam-friendly pitches and did what he did.

I said most bowlers TBH, not Warne, he's 'special'.

 

[Ikki]

As I say - I'm not bothered about the other two bowlers, not once have I said any of the three bowlers who are clearly head-and-shoulders above the others in the "flat pitch era" are better than one another.

All my comments in this thread have been aimed at is defending Murali against what I see as unfair criticism. I feel his figures are awesome - as are McGrath's and Warne's. This is all.

That's great, but I've said nothing that wasn't a fact and I haven't said anything that was unfair. So, what is it that I've said that has caused you to start this?

 

[Ikki]

If Warne were Sri Lanka his figures would likely be a fair amount lower too.

Probably, as it would be hard not to. But not as much as Murali.

ADD: But the thing is Warne is better away, and the reason he isn't better at home is because of the pitches. So, whatever that distance, if he does better home it's a non-point - he'll be better at home and away.

 

[Athlai]

Probably, as it would be hard not to. But not as much as Murali.

Probably not as much as Murali's but thats just part of how he plays isn't it. Figures aren't what make the player.

Still prefer Murali over Warne for the reasons Phlegm put forward.

 

[Ikki]

Probably not as much as Murali's but thats just part of how he plays isn't it. Figures aren't what make the player.

Still prefer Murali over Warne for the reasons Phlegm put forward.

Well, to each their own, even though it's close. And it's a mighty good case. He makes you lot look clueless.

 

[Athlai]

Well, to each their own, even though it's close. And it's a mighty good case. He makes you lot look clueless.

It's true,

 

[Richard]

That's great, but I've said nothing that wasn't a fact and I haven't said anything that was unfair. So, what is it that I've said that has caused you to start this?

These:

Not so much when you consider he played 40 of his 65 tests at home.

Um, he plays in the most spin-friendly conditions and it has nothing to do with his success? Warne does better in Sri Lanka than Murali does. Let that be a clue.

 

[Athlai]

I'd really love to see a bit more love for a few other bowlers, no possible way to distinguish the next best after them from this poll, which is interesting in itself, batsman seems to have been a much harder contest.