How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee?

[archie mac]

A flat track in Pakistan may be the same as a flat track in Adelaide, but are you really saying the track is all there is in cricket? Because it's not, and I'd imagine you know it's not. The atmospheric conditions are totally different; the outfields are totally different; and there are a few things off the field that need to be dealt with differently.

Exactly, and if so that should count in Lillee's favour, because top-order wickets are > tail-end wickets. I was surprised you seemed to be saying otherwise. If this difference is significant I'd love to hear of it.

I hope I've explained this bit above. I've never said he could not take wickets in Pakistan, just that there are plenty who did, and that a few of them, the likes of Marshall and Hadlee leading the pack, did. Hence, they've achieved more than Lillee.

But they have not, that is the point, they claimed wickets there, big deal, it is not that different. It is still a turf pitch it is still a four piece ball, and if it is more humid it would only help Lillee? If they start playing in China and some one does really well there, then they are a better bowler than Hadlee? It is so so silly

 

[SJS]

It is so so silly

Yes indeed.

But you still cant win this one mate.

 

[archie mac]

In two tests that he played there Imran averaged a mere 133 runs per wicket at the Oval with a strike rate of 332 !

Wonder what all I can read into these stats when compared with those with better figures at that ground

You can't, but if it was Lillee then that would prove a lot

 

[archie mac]

Yes indeed.

But you still cant win this one mate.

Maybe some one will lock this thread and put me out of my misery

 

[Richard]

In two tests that he played there Imran averaged a mere 133 runs per wicket at the Oval with a strike rate of 332 !

Wonder what all I can read into these stats when compared with those with better figures at that ground

Well one of those was in 1974, when he wasn't even that good yet.

Basically, he had 1 game at The Oval, and happened to do poorly in it.

Likewise, Imran never took a single wicket at Delhi!!!!!!!!! The fact he only bowled 8.3 overs there, however...

He also never took a wicket at that renowned seamer's graveyard The SCG!!!!!!!! Of course, he never bowled there in his prime (and sent down just 17 after it) so...

Similarly, he never took one at Old Trafford!!!!!!!!!! Shocking!!!!!!!!!

 

[Richard]

But they have not, that is the point, they claimed wickets there, big deal, it is not that different. It is still a turf pitch it is still a four piece ball, and if it is more humid it would only help Lillee? If they start playing in China and some one does really well there, then they are a better bowler than Hadlee? It is so so silly

It's not. If you cannot recognise that there are differences - substantial ones - between Pakistan and Australia it is you, not me, who is being silly, TBH.

 

[SJS]

Maybe some one will lock this thread and put me out of my misery

You can do it yourself. Just realise that this argument is baseless. Smile and let him be.

Do you need him to teach you anything ?

Or do you need his agreeing with you to validate your opinion or to improve Lillee's standing as a bowler in the history of the game ?

 

[archie mac]

You can do it yourself. Just realise that this argument is baseless. Smile and let him be.

Do you need him to teach you anything ?

Or do you need his agreeing with you to validate your opinion or to improve Lillee's standing as a bowler in the history of the game ?

I have tried to take the high ground but they just keep spouting rubbish and silly theories, and I am worried that someone will actually believe some of this drivel

But as usual you are right and this is my last post in this thread

 

[SJS]

I have tried to take the high ground but they just keep spouting rubbish and silly theories, and I am worried that someone will actually believe some of this drivel

A majority of the one billion plus people in India believe the crap that is pedalled by the electronic media by way of cricket 'punditry' and the print media has become almost as bad. Its terribly annoying and frustrating in a way but is there any thing one can do? I am afraid not.

As I wrote once, it is becoming increasingly difficult to have a good cricket discussion nowadays. The level of cricket 'illiteracy' is astounding. Thats why when there is an occasion to go to a social gathering where some famous cricketers are also presnt, one takes the opportunity irrespective of what else has to be given up.

Its also the reason why one keeps coming back again to CW and going away out of frustration at times

It is still one of the best places I know on the net for a meeting with so many who understand the game very well. So one needs to filter through and you pick up some lovely comments here time and again.

Thats what makes CW the place it is.

 

[SJS]

It is also the reason why it is becoming so rare for me to go to cricket grounds to watch a game. One can not go alone any more for you have no idea what kind of idiots will be sitting around you.

I do go to Delhi sometimes to watch amongst cricketing friends. But thats rare and my DDCA membership is just a cost with no benefits for most of the last 22 years.

 

[Richard]

I have tried to take the high ground but they just keep spouting rubbish and silly theories, and I am worried that someone will actually believe some of this drivel

Many people believe it, and not because I or anyone else say it (though obviously they need to hear about it somewhere), but because they have brains and can come to their own conclusions rather than swallowing that which says that Lillee was the greatest seamer of all-time bar none because he could bowl everything (as could quite a few) and because loads of people have been hoodwinked by his wow-factor.

 

[SJS]

Lillee was a great bowler.

He was one of the greatest the game has ever seen.

Whether he was THE GREATEST EVER is not something that can be claimed with anycertainity. Those who disagree have plenty of arguments to give in support of their belief but when they use Lillee's three match record in Pakistan to prove this, they prove only one thing, their own lack of knowledge of the game.

I DO NOT believe Lillee was THE GREATEST fast bowler ever but his tour of Pakistan has absolutely nothing to do with my belief.

By using such specious arguments we devalue the level of debate.

I rest my case.

 

[Richard]

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't do it because of three Tests in Pakistan! We'd say exactly the same had these 3 Tests been cancelled, or had Lillee pulled-out of the tour with this or that injury!

I just don't know how many times I have to say this.

 

[silentstriker]

I stopped posting in this thread because of that very reason. It's very tedious to keep explaining, and it's an easy straw-man argument for the other side.

 

[SJS]

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't do it because of three Tests in Pakistan! We'd say exactly the same had these 3 Tests been cancelled, or had Lillee pulled-out of the tour with this or that injury!

I just don't know how many times I have to say this.

Did I name you

 

[Richard]

But it's exactly the same for the silentstrikers, Fusions, C_Cs (RIP), Dasas, etc. Yes, maybe BhupinderSingh can of times bash that point a bit too much but he's certainly massively improved from some of the stuff he's said on the matter in the past, for which you must credit him.

I just don't know what more I can do to stop people - and it's not morons, it's sensible, considered posters like you, SJS, and Sean - from misreprisenting what we say. If there are people who say "Lillee was a conclusive failure in the subcontinent" - ignore them. Because you lumping us reasonable people in with them is incredibly, incredibly annoying, because not only do we have to argue for what we've said, we also have argue that we haven't said stuff we haven't said.

 

[SJS]

But it's exactly the same for the silentstrikers, Fusions, C_Cs (RIP), Dasas, etc. Yes, maybe BhupinderSingh can of times bash that point a bit too much but he's certainly massively improved from some of the stuff he's said on the matter in the past, for which you must credit him.

I just don't know what more I can do to stop people - and it's not morons, it's sensible, considered posters like you, SJS, and Sean - from misreprisenting what we say. If there are people who say "Lillee was a conclusive failure in the subcontinent" - ignore them. Because you lumping us reasonable people in with them is incredibly, incredibly annoying, because not only do we have to argue for what we've said, we also have argue that we haven't said stuff we haven't said.

I have no clue what you are talking about honestly.

 

[SJS]

Okay lets take it slowly.

What do you think your argument with Archie_Mac is about ?

 

[Richard]

For me, it's about that Lillee was not a proven bowler in the subcontinent, while others matched his deeds elsewhere and performed in the subcontinent.

Nothing more than that.

 

[Sanz]

All I can say that it is a convenient shift from an earlier stand 'Lillee Failed in the subcontinent' to 'Lillee was unproven in the subcontient' and hence he is not as great as Marshall , Mcgrath etc. It is pretty much the same argument but tone and language has changed after looking completely ridiculous with the earlier suggestion.