Who's the greatest opening batsman of alltime?

[pasag]

Hobbs above Sutcliffe, Hutton and Gavaskar. Rate Ponsford very highly as well.

 

[Ikki]

S/R is pretty close to irrelevant in Test cricket, except in the very rare case where you are jeopardizing the win.

Actually it is very relevant. Having batsmen with high S/R saves balls. Averages will fluctuate between batsmen by as minuscule margins as 3-4 runs but those runs will be made up EVEN by a tailender with enough balls. When the S/R of batsmen is some 20 balls less it is a big difference.

That's akin to saying scoring 500 runs is irrelevant in Test cricket, just because you can score less and win.

It's always better to score more and it's always better to score more quicker. It's also much harder to do that.

 

[Anil]

That's true, but I just disagree I guess. Sunil was much more defensive than he probably needed to be at times. I don't remember who it was that said that Bradman thought if there weren't balls to hit, don't hit them and if they were, you were to hit them; Sunil not only did not hit the balls that shouldn't be hit, he didn't hit a lot of balls that could've been hit.

what applied to the don didn't apply to most other players, he was a freak of cricketing nature, so as far as gavaskar was concerned, i do disagree that he wasted balls, he played his role(that of the anchor around which the team built its innings) to near perfection throughout his career and whenever the weight of expectations was slightly reduced, did free his arms and demonstrated dazzling strokeplay as well...

That's true, but 'swinging' away is a simple way of saying it. How many times have you seen Hayden come down the crease and not smash a ball - miss it? The guy batters pace attacks and that era was full of them - of course better ones. He is also a very good player of spin.

and that's one of the main reasons why i do rate him as a very good batsman, but gavaskar was an outstanding player against sheer pace, medium pace and spin so again the scales are so tilted that it's not even a fair comparison...

Yes, that's also very true, but I think their paths may have crossed domestically.

...and how did he fare against them?

 

[Ikki]

what applied to the don didn't apply to most other players, he was a freak of cricketing nature, so as far as gavaskar was concerned, i do disagree that he wasted balls, he played his role(that of the anchor around which the team built its innings) to near perfection throughout his career and whenever the weight of expectations was slightly reduced, did free his arms and demonstrated dazzling strokeplay as well...

It just didn't happen enough for me, personally, to consider it something he was capable of doing a lot and doing it against the very best. Gavaskar kept the runs flowing with his flicks, his flash of the blade and his reluctance to risk doing much more.

and that's one of the main reasons why i do rate him as a very good batsman, but gavaskar was an outstanding player against sheer pace, medium pace and spin so again the scales are so tilted that it's not even a fair comparison...

I think whilst Gavaskar was great at scoring runs against pace attacks, Hayden is capable of dominating them.

...and how did he fare against them?

I never watched so much domestic cricket, I'd have to look at scorecards to get a better look - anyone know a good Sheffield Shield stat site? But it's generally acknowledged he's been one of our best batsmen, either playing for Queensland or Australia. His feats against bowlers who rival guys like McGrath and Warne speak for themselves.

 

[Tomm NCCC]

ts a shame I have to choose but Id say Len Hutton, always had a certain admiration for him

 

[Anil]

It just didn't happen enough for me, personally, to consider it something he was capable of doing a lot and doing it against the very best. Gavaskar kept the runs flowing with his flicks, his flash of the blade and his reluctance to risk doing much more.

i would say watch his 121 from 128 at delhi and an exceptional 90 in 120 in an absolute minefield at ahmedabad against the windies in 83/84 if you can and then decide whether he was just about flicks, flash of the blade(?) and a reluctance to risk anything else ...this was of course against marshall, holding, wayne daniel and winston davis...

I think whilst Gavaskar was great at scoring runs against pace attacks, Hayden is capable of dominating them.

while i have seen one and seen it often, i haven't really seen the other happening(i refer to domination of exceptional pace attacks, not just any average attack)

I never watched so much domestic cricket, I'd have to look at scorecards to get a better look - anyone know a good Sheffield Shield stat site? But it's generally acknowledged he's been one of our best batsmen, either playing for Queensland or Australia. His feats against bowlers who rival guys like McGrath and Warne speak for themselves.

would be interested to know who you are referring to here, can't think of too many pace bowlers who have come close to mcgrath in the 2000s(the greats of the 90s had either retired or were in decline), and as for warne, his only real rival would be murali with kumble coming in at a distant third...and he does play spin very well...

 

[neville cardus]

I've always found it odd that Hobbs should generally rank behind W.G. as a batsman but ahead of him as an opener.

 

[Perm]

I've always found it odd that Hobbs should generally rank behind W.G. as a batsman but ahead of him as an opener.

WG batted down the order a fair bit didn't he? Besides, it's very hard to compare WG Grace (and Ranji for that matter) to any batsman outside of their era, because they played at a time when cricket was so different.

 

[Matt79]

For most of his career, unless I'm mistaken, he commanded an opening slot.

 

[neville cardus]

WG batted down the order a fair bit didn't he?

Only at the very beginning of his first-class career, when he was played predominantly as a bowler.

 

[Perm]

For most of his career, unless I'm mistaken, he commanded an opening slot.

Only at the very beginning of his first-class career, when he was played predominantly as a bowler.

I see. As I said, it's probably more to do with Grace being almost incomparable to batsman that played outside of his era.

 

[neville cardus]

I see. As I said, it's probably more to do with Grace being almost incomparable to batsman that played outside of his era.

I don't quite agree. The era following the abolition of round-arm bowling seems a perfect starting point for such comparisons. The game really hasn't changed all that much over the last 140 years.

 

[Perm]

I don't quite agree. The era following the abolition of round-arm bowling seems a perfect starting point for such comparisons. The game really hasn't changed all that much over the last 140 years.

It most certainly has. I think Grace is regarded as the better batsman because he invented the modern technique that allowed other batsman like Hobbs to play the game and be such profilic run-scorers. 197 First Class centuries, you can't really argue with that

 

[neville cardus]

It most certainly has. I think Grace is regarded as the better batsman because he invented the modern technique that allowed other batsman like Hobbs to play the game and be such profilic run-scorers.

Indeed. I've always felt that they ought to have traded nicknames.

197 First Class centuries, you can't really argue with that

Try me.

 

[Ikki]

i would say watch his 121 from 128 at delhi and an exceptional 90 in 120 in an absolute minefield at ahmedabad against the windies in 83/84 if you can and then decide whether he was just about flicks, flash of the blade(?) and a reluctance to risk anything else ...this was of course against marshall, holding, wayne daniel and winston davis...

I didn't say he doesn't have the ability. I don't consider it a real strength unless he does it consistently. Which is why I have trouble when people are saying he had all these tools, it wasn't as if he was doing it all the time.

while i have seen one and seen it often, i haven't really seen the other happening(i refer to domination of exceptional pace attacks, not just any average attack)

Well, that's your opinion formed by what you've, I guess, viewed.

would be interested to know who you are referring to here, can't think of too many pace bowlers who have come close to mcgrath in the 2000s(the greats of the 90s had either retired or were in decline), and as for warne, his only real rival would be murali with kumble coming in at a distant third...and he does play spin very well...

Uh, like Wasim Akram, who would probably cause him more trouble than McGrath would? Hayden has done well against Akram and Murali - which I think are comparable with McGrath and Warne.

 

[Days of Grace]

Top 10 opening batsmen in Tests based on my ratings:

1. Hobbs 928
2. Hutton 843
3. Sutcliffe 834
4. Gavaskar 832
5. Hayden 793*
6. Boycott 720
7. Mitchell 686
8. Langer 670
9. Gooch 651
10. Lawry 649

My personal opinion is similar to the top 6 of my ratings. Hobbs, daylight, the next 3 in a group, then a sizable gap back to Hayden. I would have Lawry ahead of Langer as well.

 

[Matt79]

Interesting. I'd have Trumper, Grace, Morris, Barnes, Simpson, B. Richards and Grenidge in ther ahead of Langer, Gooch, Lawrey and probably Hayden as well. Mitchell is often grossly underrated you'd feel.

 

[Perm]

Trumper and Grace didn't really perform in the Tests that they played, certainly not as much as some of the other players on that list. Can't help but feel Barry Richards was hurt by a lack of Tests, especially since the rankings created by Days of Grace are based on Test matches.

 

[Matt79]

All true - my comment was not so much a criticism of his system of rankings as reflecting my own top ten - probably wasn't clear from my phrasing.

 

[R_D]

SS assessment of Hayden seems fairly spot on.
You only have to look at his average in series where the pitches haven't been totally flat and had a decent bowler or 2.
Ashes 05 is an example.
India 03/04.... he batted exceptionally in 01 in India but there was Harbhjan from one end and another random indian spinner at the other end, who he totally dominated. But in 03/04 he had 2 good spinners from both sides of the wicket and struggled.
SA 05/06... pitches were pretty lively and there were decent paceman bowling, Nel and Pollock and Hayden averaged around 38... which isn't bad but far cry from 50 which he manged on the flat decks in Australia against them.
We all know Hayden is great batsman to dominate crap bowling and especially bowling on flat decks but he hasn't shown much to show that he can play the same way against quality bowling on lively pitches.
After watching some of the SA series... my respect for Ponting went up a fair bit... he played really well on those pitches.