Should Australia select more youngsters??

[Perm]

There was a belief that Watson was doing the wrong sort of weights, trying to get "big" rather than injury proof himself. However, for the past year or so (from memory) he has been given a more core-based program to help prevent injuries.

The only injuries in which the finger could possibly be pointed at Watson are the two recurrances of the hamstring injury straight after recommencing playing. And that's just a "possibly" - on the proviso he was doubtful himself that he was right.

Yeah, that was the discussion. Watson was doing weights in order to buff up and look good, rather than develop muscles that will help him with his cricket and prevent injuries, which is obviously what he wanted. We can't be too sure about this though without knowing Watson's gym habits, which I don't think any of us are privvy to, so it's all just speculation.

I agree with you about the second point, rushing back from injury is never a good idea, but it is understandable why Watson wants to secure his place in the team.

 

[Perm]

His got a better average then Hussey for one. Hussey best cricket has always been in England. His only just turned in some good performances in Australia. Whereas Watson average is also inflated slightly from County Cricket. But overall his put together better performances in the Pura Cup then Hussey.

Batsmen above Watson; Hayden, Jaques, Rogers, Ponting, Clarke, Hodge, Mike Hussey, Katich.

Watson averages 44.09 in Pura Cup cricket, Hussey averages 42.43. Not a huge difference really.

Given that Martyn and Bevan have retired, and are no longer in the mix, then I suppose you could exclude them from the list. You've still got guys like Hussey, Gilchrist, Lehmann, Love, di Venuto and Maher who are all possibly better than Watson, and in Lehmann's case definitely.

 

[Goughy]

I agree, he wouldn't make the team as a specialist bowler or specialist batsman. But he's an all-rounder, meaning that he makes the side because he can do well in all disciplines.

No, the top allrounders would make it in on the basis of one of their suits.

A potential world-class all-rounder is somebody who can perform creditibly in both disciplines. If Watson did get his fitness sorted he could only strengthen Australia, as they would have a genuine 5th bowling option and a strong batsman at #6.

Unless you can make it into a side on the basis of 1 of your skills then you weaken a team and you cannot be a world-class AR. As I mentioned before, its something the top guys like Pollock, Kallis and Flintoff have done.

What you describe is a downgrade at the number 6 position (ie there is someone better but not selected) which weakens the batting and a weak bowler that takes overs away from the top 4 guys. I cant think any team would be anything other than relieved if they saw Watsons name on a teamsheet as it gives a chink in the armour at #6 and takes 20 overs a game away from the more threatening bowlers.

If a guy is to bowl some 'fill in' overs then it must be a player that is a specialist batsman (ie selected for that role) that can help out.

If you want 5 bowlers then you must play 5 bowlers. Its a game you cant easily cheat. The inclusion of a Watson weakens both the batting and the bowling for a team like Australia.

A team like NZ has always used players like Watson, but that is due to lack of depth and the need to fill holes. Australia with its depth and specialist talent doesnt have to try and do such things as it only downgrades both units.

 

[chaminda_00]

Watson averages 44.09 in Pura Cup cricket, Hussey averages 42.43. Not a huge difference really.

Given that Martyn and Bevan have retired, and are no longer in the mix, then I suppose you could exclude them from the list. You've still got guys like Hussey, Gilchrist, Lehmann, Love, di Venuto and Maher who are all possibly better than Watson, and in Lehmann's case definitely.

The thing with Hussey is that he put together some massive innings and then goes missing for the rest of the season. There have been plenty of times in his career that there have been calls for him to get dropped from the Victorian side due to a string of poor performances. I rate Watson higher cus he generally more consistent and also has the ability to score big runs and win you matches. Lehmann yeah his better, but Watson a class above the rest right now.

 

[Athlai]

If NZ had a player like Watson we'd be a better team, and as for an allrounder getting into a side for their stronger ability in one aspect of their game, Cairns is a great example of a true all rounder who is equally valuable to both parts of the game. Flintoff was the same when he had hit his batting prime, though his bowling is his strong suit at the moment.

As for whether Watsons good enough, as far as I know, a lot of those other batsman are older than him, and isn't it really expected that batsman hit their stride from 28? He still may have more to offer.

 

[howardj]

I think the point is wider than just the Australian XI. Where are really young, gun Pura Cup cricketers? I always think, the best Test players have played Test cricket in their early 20's - they've been exposed to International cricket early on. That's partly how Australia built a golden era.

Martyn; Langer; Ponting; Hayden; Slater; Clarke; SWaugh; Healy; Gillespie; Warne; McGrath - they all debuted in their early 20's. Yes, they got dropped after 12-18 months, but they had the exposure and came back better players. You build a fantastic team by exposing players to International cricket in their early-mid twenties.

My big concern for Australian cricket is that there are too many older guys clogging up the Pura Cup system who are never going to play for Australia, but who are never going to retire while you're paying them $80 000 - $100 000 / season.

Food for thought.

 

[Richard]

Watson averages 44.09 in Pura Cup cricket, Hussey averages 42.43. Not a huge difference really.

Given that Martyn and Bevan have retired, and are no longer in the mix, then I suppose you could exclude them from the list. You've still got guys like Hussey, Gilchrist, Lehmann, Love, di Venuto and Maher who are all possibly better than Watson, and in Lehmann's case definitely.

Lehmann may be a better batsman than Watson, but it hardly matters if he's not in the Test frame, really (which he's not, and hasn't been for 3 years now).

Given that Watson was slated to play the First Test last summer and was replaced by a specialist batsman, I don't think it's too far to go to claim Watson could win a place in Australia's Test side - right now (if he was fit) not just "if he gave-up bowling" - purely as a specialist bat.

TBH, I'd dispute that Gilchrist is better than Watson too. His Test form of the last 4 years has not been compelling.

 

[Richard]

I think the point is wider than just the Australian XI. Where are really young, gun Pura Cup cricketers? I always think, the best Test players have played Test cricket in their early 20's - they've been exposed to International cricket early on. That's partly how Australia built a golden era.

Martyn; Langer; Ponting; Hayden; Slater; Clarke; SWaugh; Healy; Gillespie; Warne; McGrath - they all debuted in their early 20's. Yes, they got dropped after 12-18 months, but they had the exposure and came back better players. You build a fantastic team by exposing players to International cricket in their early-mid twenties.

My big concern for Australian cricket is that there are too many older guys clogging up the Pura Cup system who are never going to play for Australia, but who are never going to retire while you're paying them $80 000 - $100 000 / season.

Food for thought.

Thing is, though (as I seem to remember I've said before) that the Pura Cup isn't purely about everyone being a potential Test player.

Surely you'll learn more about a young bowler by him bowling at the relentless Matthew Elliott than some rookie opener, just promoted from first-grades?

Personally, I want a player in the Pura Cup for as long as he can continue to perform at that level, and as long as he is, he's not "clogging it up" at all. If a young batsman can't force him out, what chance has he of playing for Australia?

Once these players finally decide to retire, then it's time for the next generation. If this next generation are good enough, they'll then take their own chance to perform. If they aren't, they won't.

 

[howardj]

Thing is, though (as I seem to remember I've said before) that the Pura Cup isn't purely about everyone being a potential Test player.

Surely you'll learn more about a young bowler by him bowling at the relentless Matthew Elliott than some rookie opener, just promoted from first-grades?

Personally, I want a player in the Pura Cup for as long as he can continue to perform at that level, and as long as he is, he's not "clogging it up" at all. If a young batsman can't force him out, what chance has he of playing for Australia?

Once these players finally decide to retire, then it's time for the next generation. If this next generation are good enough, they'll then take their own chance to perform. If they aren't, they won't.

Obviously I'm not suggesting it be a quasi under 25 competition. Always, it's a question of balance. The example you cite, Matt Elliot, would be a case in point. He's gone shocking in the last couple of years in FC cricket; he's well in his 30's; and has no prospect of playing for Australia. In sum, he is dead wood.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Obviously I'm not suggesting it be a quasi under 25 competition. Always, it's a question of balance. The example you cite, Matt Elliot, would be a case in point. He's gone shocking in the last couple of years in FC cricket; he's well in his 30's; and has no prospect of playing for Australia. In sum, he is dead wood.

But he did win the Player of the Year in the Ford Ranger Cup.

 

[iamdavid]

His got a better average then Hussey for one. Hussey best cricket has always been in England. His only just turned in some good performances in Australia. Whereas Watson average is also inflated slightly from County Cricket. But overall his put together better performances in the Pura Cup then Hussey.

Batsmen above Watson; Hayden, Jaques, Rogers, Ponting, Clarke, Hodge, Mike Hussey, Katich.

I believe Watson is atm potentially a better FC batsman than Clarke

 

[James90]

No. We have a strong side, a strong domestic competition, and enough players on the fringes most of the time to keep really young players out.

Unfortunately this is the case with several clubs, making it hard for guys like me to play grade cricket.

 

[Prince EWS]

I believe Watson is atm potentially a better FC batsman than Clarke

And Katich for that matter. Potentially I'd say he could be better than Hodge, too, but he isn't at the moment.

 

[howardj]

But he did win the Player of the Year in the Ford Ranger Cup.

Not really fussed on what happens in the shorter version of the game with youngsters etc. I was speaking mainly of the Test and FC spheres.

 

[chaminda_00]

And Katich for that matter. Potentially I'd say he could be better than Hodge, too, but he isn't at the moment.

And Rogers...

 

[Perm]

My big concern for Australian cricket is that there are too many older guys clogging up the Pura Cup system who are never going to play for Australia, but who are never going to retire while you're paying them $80 000 - $100 000 / season.

Food for thought.

These are the guys who help to develop the next generation, even if they aren't in the international frame themselves, they could potentially put others in it.

 

[chaminda_00]

These are the guys who help to develop the next generation, even if they aren't in the international frame themselves, they could potentially put others in it.

- Grant Lambert keep Moses out of the NSW side
- Greg Mail kept Ed Cowan out of the NSW side for two seasons

These guys do nothing to help the next generation, they are just crap players wanting their time in the sun.

 

[four_or_six]

Yeah, that was the discussion. Watson was doing weights in order to buff up and look good, rather than develop muscles that will help him with his cricket and prevent injuries, which is obviously what he wanted. We can't be too sure about this though without knowing Watson's gym habits, which I don't think any of us are privvy to, so it's all just speculation.

Argh, comments like that really annoy me. I find it so unlikely that Watson was doing that, I thought he was told he had to do more weight work after his back injuries. Also, Kontouris has been quoted saying that Watson has a specific body type that means he puts on a lot of bulk when he does weights compared to others.

Just because he has the attitude to "make the most of what you've got" (as he put it so nicely in an interview I saw when he was asked about his undoing the top couple of buttons on his shirt) doesn't mean he has been doing weights to look good rather than help his cricket.

 

[Richard]

Also, Kontouris has been quoted saying that Watson has a specific body type that means he puts on a lot of bulk when he does weights compared to others.

Jammy bastard.

 

[Richard]

- Grant Lambert keep Moses out of the NSW side
- Greg Mail kept Ed Cowan out of the NSW side for two seasons

These guys do nothing to help the next generation, they are just crap players wanting their time in the sun.

There's a big difference between guys like them and the Blewetts, Elliotts, Bevans, Angels, Wilsons et al. If someone's performing crap, he should be dropped. If someone keeps someone not performing in the side ahead of someone with potential, that's just poor selection, simple as.