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Who was the better bowler ?

Who was the better bowler ?


  • Total voters
    42

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
And how old was Imran Khan at that time.Then he was near his retirement & playing in the team as a batsman basically.
Imran was bowling well, so it doesn't matter how old he was, Anyways he was 34.

I remember the WI series before India tour (WI posted their lowest test score of 53). And I check the stats now and I am right. Infact his stats for the next couple of series were pretty impressive too, so to suggest that he faired poorly in India because of he was old is clutching at straws.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
So? This is one single series. To judge anything much on this is ridiculous.
You lot Judge Lillee on the basis of one series, dont you ?

Fusion is right that you are grossly exaggerating the effect home Umpiring had on Imran's figures.
No he is not. He clearly has not watched matches in Pakistan during Imran's era neither have you. Not saying that he was succefful only because of Umpiring, but it definately affected his average at least when they played against India.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
You lot Judge Lillee on the basis of one series, dont you ?
No, we do not. Our judgement would be exactly the same had Lillee missed that series, as we've all said 100 times.
No he is not. He clearly has not watched matches in Pakistan during Imran's era neither have you. Not saying that he was succefful only because of Umpiring, but it definately affected his average at least when they played against India.
Why should Umpiring affect someone against just 1 team? That makes no sense whatsoever. Imran still performed superbly when bowling in front of other Umpires. It completely baffles all logic to suggest Imran's home record would be much different at all if every single Umpiring decision involving him had been made correctly.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
And I disagree with those who've said that Wasim had more variety.Imran Khan was a master of bowling reverse swing,reverse-swinging & conventional swinging yorkers,bouncers & out-swingers where as Wasim was a master of bowling reverse swingers only but had good yorkers & bouncers but not as good as that of Imran or Waqar
That's so wrong. Imran without his pace was nothing, He clearly was an ordinary bowler at the beginning/end of his career. Same can be said about Waqar too, without pace he was average. Agree they were more lethal than Akram at peak. But Akram was explosive at the beginning of his career, when he was really fast. Later on when he lost his pace or deliberately reduced his speed, he still was as fearful and sucessfull.
 
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Fusion

Global Moderator
No he is not. He clearly has not watched matches in Pakistan during Imran's era neither have you. Not saying that he was succefful only because of Umpiring, but it definately affected his average at least when they played against India.
Sanz I have watched plenty of Imran's games in Pakistan. To make it sound like the major reason he had success in Pak is because of biased umpiring is frankly ridiculous. You still haven't explained to me how Imran was able to have success in India without the help of the umps (with equally biased umpiring in India's favor btw). Imran was one of the finest bowlers that played the game. He has a great record against all, specially the best team of the era WI. Let's not belittle his achievements by saying he did all that because of biased umpires.
 

funnygirl

State Regular
Fusion ,i would never say Imran is inferior to any bowler . It is just that i prefer Wasim over Imran personally .

Same like i prefer Dennis lillee over Mcgrath , Roberts and Holding over Marshall . Not looking at statistics .I just found them better bowlers .
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Sanz I have watched plenty of Imran's games in Pakistan. To make it sound like the major reason he had success in Pak is because of biased umpiring is frankly ridiculous. You still haven't explained to me how Imran was able to have success in India without the help of the umps (with equally biased umpiring in India's favor btw). Imran was one of the finest bowlers that played the game. He has a great record against all, specially the best team of the era WI. Let's not belittle his achievements by saying he did all that because of biased umpires.
You clearly are mis-interpreting my posts. I have never said that whatever success Imran had in Pakistan was only because of biased umpiring oh and I have never claimed that Imran wasn't a very fine bowler, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

And what success in India you are talking about ? Imran's average in India is 28 compared to 19 in Pakistan. Are you suggesting that 28 and 19 are same ? Imran played 10 tests in India and took only 27 wickets(2.7/test) as opposed to 67 in 13 in Pakistan (5.1/test) and that is despite playing 4 test series in the twilight of his career where he was just a passenger as a bowler. If you dont see any difference in the results and stats then I cant say much.

I am not trying to belittle his performance, What I have said is that his average in pakistan is little bit skewed because of the biased umpiring in Pakistan during his era. Although I have no way of proving this(and thats why I didn't say it earlier), IMO his average in Pakistan would have been closer to his over all average, which ,needless to say, is still fantastic. If that is belitting his performance then be it.

PS - My apologies for making an assumption that you have not watched Imran bowl in Pakistan.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
You clearly are mis-interpreting my posts. I have never said that whatever success Imran had in Pakistan was only because of biased umpiring oh and I have never claimed that Imran wasn't a very fine bowler, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

And what success in India you are talking about ? Imran's average in India is 28 compared to 19 in Pakistan. Are you suggesting that 28 and 19 are same ? Imran played 10 tests in India and took only 27 wickets(2.7/test) as opposed to 67 in 13 in Pakistan (5.1/test) and that is despite playing 4 test series in the twilight of his career where he was just a passenger as a bowler. If you dont see any difference in the results and stats then I cant say much.

I am not trying to belittle his performance, What I have said is that his average in pakistan is little bit skewed because of the biased umpiring in Pakistan during his era. Although I have no way of proving this(and thats why I didn't say it earlier), IMO his average in Pakistan would have been closer to his over all average, which ,needless to say, is still fantastic. If that is belitting his performance then be it.

PS - My apologies for making an assumption that you have not watched Imran bowl in Pakistan.
No need for apologies, I know you are not the type to mean anything by that comment. As far as the difference in Imran's average in home vs away, I think that's logical. Most professional players perform better at home and Imran was no different. I also realize that umpiring standards back then in the subcontinent were not great, and hence Imran would've benefited from that. However, umpiring was not the reason for the difference in average IMO. As we all know, Imran was the first person to advocate using nuetral umpires and succeeded in making that happen. So certainly he didn't try to benefit from any bias umpiring and played a lot of his home games in front of nuetrals. Lastly, like you pointed out, his away average was still outstanding which shows he was an all-time great regardless of venue. Anyway, I respect your opinion that Akram was better, and that's certainly a valid debate. I just wanted to rebut any impression that Imran had different results at home because of umpiring.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
No need for apologies, I know you are not the type to mean anything by that comment. As far as the difference in Imran's average in home vs away, I think that's logical. Most professional players perform better at home and Imran was no different. I also realize that umpiring standards back then in the subcontinent were not great, and hence Imran would've benefited from that. However, umpiring was not the reason for the difference in average IMO. As we all know, Imran was the first person to advocate using nuetral umpires and succeeded in making that happen. So certainly he didn't try to benefit from any bias umpiring and played a lot of his home games in front of nuetrals. Lastly, like you pointed out, his away average was still outstanding which shows he was an all-time great regardless of venue. Anyway, I respect your opinion that Akram was better, and that's certainly a valid debate. I just wanted to rebut any impression that Imran had different results at home because of umpiring.
Its also important to note that during the 8-9 years that Imran was at his peak, Pakistan did not tour as much as they do now. Only three series (maybe four) if I am not mistaken. During this period his away record is fabulous.

Everyone knows Imran bloomed late as a bowler. This point comes up often when debating Imran versus Botham since Botham did all his 'good' bowling at the very beginning of his career. So his early tours were not great.

Similarly he prolonged his career once he became captain by giving more time to his batting (again a well known fact) but duing this last period he had declined as a bowler. His pace had dropped perceptibly and his massive in-swing was not that pronounced and not that late.

He was still good enough to bowl at home but on wickets which needed pace or swing he was not the force he was in his younger days.

His performnce dropped at home too but it dropped much more outside Pakistan.

There is some merit in Pakistani umpires helping Pakistani bowlers argument but that applies to others particularly from India, Sri Lanka and NewZealand. Its not something which explains away his great skills as a fast bowler.

I think its a better argument that Imran at his peak was a greater bower (by farin my humble opinion) while Wasim remained a top rung world class bowler for much longer by adding more and more variety to his bowling as he played longer.

We also tend to forget how many great fast bowlers were playing in Imran's time. Lillee and Thomson from Australia, Hadlee in NewZealand, and a huge number in West Indies besides the likes of Botham, Kapil, Willis etc who were no mere trundlers. The point being the world and the batsmen around the world were brought up on a regulardiet fo quality fast bowling and against such batsmen amidst such a fabulous pool of peers, for Imran to stand out was not something to be scoffed at.

It is in that wealth of right arm fast bowlers- probably the greatest the world has ever seen playing at the same time - that Imran stood out as one of the finest. Wasim was in a time of lesser/fewer lights and the only one who bowled left arm fast posing different kind of problems to the batsmen. No discredit to Wasim since he took left arm fast bowling to another level with his great use of the bowling crease and his variations and skill in swinging the ball irrespective of how old it was. Yet a small point to keep in mind.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Imran may well be a greater bowler than Wasim, though I don't think the ICC ratings are necessarily the argument to show it. I've always found it interesting that Wasim's peak ratings are relatively so low compared to the bowlers he's generally ranked with, but we have to remember that the ICC ratings are a form guide based on certain statistical criteria - and the peak ratings you're referring to snapshot a moment in time of the players' careers, and as with any statistical ratings, there can be inconsistencies.

You consider the ICC bowling ratings as "a good indication of historical cricketing achievement" which is fair enough. Are you equally comfortable attaching the same significance to the batting ratings, which tell us that Matthew Hayden and Mohammed Yousuf rank among the top 10 highest rated players in the history of the game, 30-40 rankings points ahead of "second tier" players like Lara, Tendulkar and Hammond, none of whom even make the top 20? I think you could could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of cricket fans worldwide who'd agree with that.

The ICC ratings are an interesting discussion point and provide a good statistical form guide for players at a moment in time, but I think it's treading dangerous ground to necessarily consider them a marker for the historical greatness of a player without looking at plenty of other factors as well.
A few points on this.

a) There are obviously other factors that have to be considered. Length of career and consistency as well as other factors play a role. The players that have one brief incredible run of form that gives them an artificial high rating need to be weeded out. However, a low rating compred to other 'greats' can add a perspective to the issue.

b) For both the batting and bowing ratings a number of 900 or above is seen as top echelon. Now although Lara only has the 20 highest rating it was 911 which says a lot. Tendulkar has 898 which is still a monster rating. Both are still a lot higher than Wasims 57th rating of mid-800s which is very low for a supposed 'alltime' great

c) Lets take the numbers of 6 batsmen and 4 bowlers in a side. There are therefore more batsmen in the game and it would logically be more competetive to make a top batting spot than a bowling spot. Comparing Lara at 20 as a similar situation to Wasim at 57 is like comparing apples and oranges.

d) I see no reason why it would be expected that Lara and Tendulkar should be rated a lot higher either. On this forum Ive discussed on numerous occasions why I dont think either are close to being the best ever. Sure there are a few guys listed ahead of them on that list that they should be considered over and they should be a little higher, but I dont see their placings as a massve anomoly. Lara by many may only be considerd 4th on the WI batting list behind guys like Sobers, Headley and Richards so I wouldnt find an alltime ranking of in the teens as offensive.

c) If you were to use the batting number as a way to disparage the system, the obvious way would be to show Bradman ranked anywhere but number 1. Unfortunately he sits at the top of the tree and with the exception of a few players he is followed by all the usual suspects you would expect to see in any top batting list.

d) So whilst I agree that other factors must be include in the assessment of a player (I never claimed that this should be the only way) it is hard to ignore a rating of 57 for Wasim if a case is trying to be built that he is one of the best bowlers ever.
 
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Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
It is in that wealth of right arm fast bowlers- probably the greatest the world has ever seen playing at the same time - that Imran stood out as one of the finest. Wasim was in a time of lesser/fewer lights and the only one who bowled left arm fast posing different kind of problems to the batsmen. No discredit to Wasim since he took left arm fast bowling to another level with his great use of the bowling crease and his variations and skill in swinging the ball irrespective of how old it was. Yet a small point to keep in mind.
Wasim played in the era of Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, Akhtar, Mcgrath, Gillespie, Donald, Pollock, Hardly any lesser crop of bowlers.
 

funnygirl

State Regular
why..there have been few bowlers with the level of success that Botham had in the first half of his career in the last 50 years
Are u ready to accept that Joel Garner is the greatest fast bowler ever ?

Are u ready to accept that guys like Hayden , Zaheer Abbas are better than Gavaskar ,Lara....?
 

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