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Who is the best pace bowler of all time?

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Ok sorry about India but you can't deny that he failed on asian wickets.An to me,it doesn't matter whether someone plays 1 match,3 or 100.When you are a failure,you are a failure & no. of matches should not be used as excuse.
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I completely agree.

I mean just imagine Lillee played one full test match in Sri Lanka and got just 3 wickets at 35 each. Atrocious.

You know BS, there was a right arm fast bowler who had a lot of problem bowling at the Oval, England.

In two tests he played there he averaged a fabulous 198 and a strike rate an astounding 531 !!

Wow ! What a bowler, no ?

Wonder if you have heard of him? One Mr IK Niazi.
 
I completely agree.

I mean just imagine Lillee played one full test match in Sri Lanka and got just 3 wickets at 35 each. Atrocious.

You know BS, there was a right arm fast bowler who had a lot of problem bowling at the Oval, England.

In two tests he played there he averaged a fabulous 198 and a strike rate an astounding 531 !!

Wow ! What a bowler, no ?

Wonder if you have heard of him? One Mr IK Niazi.
Highly respectable SJS,we're discussing performances in particular countries & not at specific cricket grounds.And IK Niazi has an excellent overall record in England,infact he has an excellent overall record against all countries except New Zealand,against whom he has a good record.

When playing away,he has an excellent record against all countries & in none of the countries is his record being as worst as that of Lillee in subcontinent,in fact he was always light years(in all countries) ahead in terms of staying away from Lilleeish record in subcontinent.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Highly respectable SJS,we're discussing performances in particular countries & not at specific cricket grounds.And IK Niazi has an excellent overall record in England,infact he has an excellent overall record against all countries except New Zealand,against whom he has a good record.

When playing away,he has an excellent record against all countries & in none of the countries is his record being as worst as that of Lillee in subcontinent,in fact he was always light years(in all countries) ahead in terms of staying away from Lilleeish record in subcontinent.
The point BS, my dear, is that a player can have a bad match or a bad 2-3 matches. They may happen to be on the same ground, the same series or same country.

One can have a bad spell and if that happens to be in the same country and you never play in that country again, it is intellectual dishonesty to use that to insinuate that this particular player was no good on this particular country or ground or whathave you.

The sample size has to be large enough for the conclusion to be credible.

I mentioned Imran's figures atthe oval not because they mean anything but just to show that statistical oddities cant be used to draw such 'certain' conclusions.

I promise you I vcan find great players who have not done well in a particular country and it means nothing.

If you want I will invest the time to do that otherwise lets just forget this.

You may feel Lillee is a better bowler than Imran and I respect that because Imran was one of the greatest bowlers I have seen and I have seen them for over forty years. There is no exaggeration is someone saying Imran is better than Lillee becuase the difference is not great either way.

But to say that Lillle was not a great bowler because of one tour of Pakistan is ridiculous. And to say that he was afraid of touring the sub continent again is childish.
 
The point BS, my dear, is that a player can have a bad match or a bad 2-3 matches. They may happen to be on the same ground, the same series or same country.

One can have a bad spell and if that happens to be in the same country and you never play in that country again, it is intellectual dishonesty to use that to insinuate that this particular player was no good on this particular country or ground or whathave you.

The sample size has to be large enough for the conclusion to be credible.

I mentioned Imran's figures atthe oval not because they mean anything but just to show that statistical oddities cant be used to draw such 'certain' conclusions.

I promise you I vcan find great players who have not done well in a particular country and it means nothing.

If you want I will invest the time to do that otherwise lets just forget this.

You may feel Lillee is a better bowler than Imran and I respect that because Imran was one of the greatest bowlers I have seen and I have seen them for over forty years. There is no exaggeration is someone saying Imran is better than Lillee becuase the difference is not great either way.

But to say that Lillle was not a great bowler because of one tour of Pakistan is ridiculous. And to say that he was afraid of touring the sub continent again is childish.
I agree with you & I never said "Lillee was not a great bowler".All I say is that he was not a better fast bowler than Imran,Marshall,McGrath,Garner,Ambrose,Hadlee,Akram,Barnes,Donald,Lindwall,Waqar etc.They're all not onlystatistically better than Lillee(Lillee's poor record in Pakistan is not being considered here) but also served their respective countries in a better way than Lillee did.I respect Lillee & consider him a great bowler but he won't make my top 10 fast bowlers of alltime.I've no problem with others putting him in their alltime top 10s but Saying that "Lillee is the best bowler ever' is as ridiculous as using Lillee's 3 tests in Pakistan to say that he was not a great bowler.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Saying that "Lillee is the best bowler ever' is as ridiculous
Not ridiculous but certainly debatable. Highly debatable :)

The point , however is, that howsoever debatable that maybe, and I agree it is, we dont need to use Lillee's tour to Pakistan to prove that because that is a very tenuous argument.

Okay we are done with this I think :)
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Hero-worship is a terrible thing indeed.
Well, when it comes from said players then who are you and I to judge that? They know much more about the game than we do. You can let that sway you or you can let 3 tests sway you. To me, the latter is much more 'terrible'.
 
Well, when it comes from said players then who are you and I to judge that?
Most of them are really biased towards the players they played agsinst & their countrymen & sometimes they would make such outlandish statements that never on earth would anyone believe e.g Imran Khan praising his love child Mohammad Sami & Wasim Akram praising his disciple Irfan Pathan.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Most of them are really biased towards the players they played agsinst 7 their countrymen & sometimes they would make such outlandish sttements that never on earth would anyone believe e.g Imran Khan praising his love child Mohammad Sami & Wasim Akram praising his disciple Irfan Pathan.
Neither were related and the comparison is flawed. These guys competed against each other, they were rivals, I don't think they'd have any over-exaggerated affection towards each other to hyperbole like that. And not just 1 of them, pretty much all of them have said something along those lines about Lillee, so I don't they were all infatuated because of his handsome looks and cool demeanor.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
As an aside Kaz, I'd like to see the context of that Gideon Haigh quote in your sig - because I rate Haigh as one of the modern game's foremost writers and observers, yet that quote to my mind is all kinds of wrong.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Here you go mate:

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1816675.htm

Gideon Haigh discusses Warne legacy

The World Today - Thursday, 21 December , 2006 12:42:00
Reporter: Eleanor Hall

ELEANOR HALL: So what kind of legacy does Shane Warne leave, joining me now to discuss that and highlights of the sheikh of spin's career is journalist and author Gideon Haigh, who has written a number of cricket books, is a regular guest on the ABC's Offsiders program and is covering the current Ashes tour for the UK's Guardian newspaper.

Gideon Haigh, thanks for joining us.

GIDEON HAIGH: Nice to be here.

ELEANOR HALL: Now, was there a particular moment when you realised Shane Warne was something special?

GIDEON HAIGH: Well, I think the moment that everyone recalls and the shot that echoed around the world, is the ball with which he dismissed Mike Gatting in the first Test match of the 1993 series.

He sauntered up, casually tossing the ball from one hand to the other, wheeled his arm over, and you know, most bowlers under those circumstances just want to land at there or thereabouts. They want to land it on the cut strip. Warne actually decided that he was going to spin the bejesus out of is.

And it curved in the air against the direction of the spin, came back and pitched outside leg stump and took the top off to dismiss a completely bemused Mike Gatting, and send the commentators into raptures.

ELEANOR HALL: Well, let's listen to Shane Warne talking about that ball, which is now called the ball of the century.

SHANE WARNE: First one, obviously always a little bit nervous for the first ball. So, Mike Gatting – good player of spin - thought that a bit nervous first time against England, what we'll have to do here is just bowl a nice leg break that hopefully lands somewhere on the mark and can turn.

(Crowd cheering)

CRICKET COMMENTATOR: He's done it. He's started off with the most beautiful delivery. Gatting has absolutely no idea what has happened to it. Still doesn't know. He asks Kenny Palmer on the way out. Kenny Palmer just gave him a raised eyebrow and a little nod, and that's all it needed.

SHANE WARNE: Probably the best one I've ever bowled, so pretty good start.

ELEANOR HALL: A pretty good start indeed. Shane Warne there talking about the Gatting ball.

Now, Gideon Haigh, from that moment in 1993 Shane Warne never seemed to lose the psychological superiority over nearly every batting side in the world. How did a wild living, slow bowler manage to monster the world's best batsmen as soon as he stepped up to the crease?

GIDEON HAIGH: Well, look it's probably not fair to say that Warne's career has just been one victory after the other. That underestimates the degree to which he had to fight against the deterioration of his own body. What Warne does, in terms of harnessing the power of his shoulder and the dexterity of his fingers, is extraordinary. And he's borne the physical toll of that, and he's adapted to the changes of his body over that time.

He's never, interestingly, been successful in India. I think that's mainly because he's often gone there sort of half fit, or injured, and he's found himself play against good players of spin bowling. And I think his wickets in India cost about 40 runs each.

But the thing about Warne is that he's incurably game, and all it takes is a batsman at the other end, and the imminence of a contest to bestir from him as close as he can get to his best.

ELEANOR HALL: In that sense it's a mental game.

GIDEON HAIGH: It's a mental game, and I think these days it's almost as though he's taking wickets by force of will and of personality.

ELEANOR HALL: Of course he changed the game on the other side of the fence too. What do you think is the effect, when he goes out, what effect does he have on the crowd in England or in Australia? Do you get a buzz when you…

GIDEON HAIGH: I get a huge buzz out of watching him. It's very interesting to watch him in England, where he is at least popular as he is in Australia. Because I think there he is sort of every English person's idea of an Australian, which is sort of one part beach bum, one part soapie star, one part rock star and with … blond, and with an earring to boot.

He's got that casual devil may care kind of attitude that English people see as the stereotypical Aussie. In Australia I've been watching him this summer, because I've been think that this might be around the corner, and that we should cherish him while we can. Obviously that's going to apply people at the MCG on the first day on Boxing Day, because they will never see another bowler like him. I think there'll sooner be another Bradman than another Warne.

ELEANOR HALL: Well, let's listen to another of Shane Warne's great moments, his Ashes hat trick.

CRICKET COMMENTATOR: Five men plus the people around the batsman. There we go. Fleming took the last one, Merv Hughes before him.

(Crowd cheering)

CRICKET COMMENTATOR 2: Yes! Oh, he's got him. Is he out? Yes, he's got him. It's a hat trick. Yes, he's gone. He's gone. It's a hat trick. That's a hat trick for Shane Warne, a great moment in his career. What a catch by David Boon. We won't see many better catches at forward short leg than that one. The Aussies are all around and have a look at that.

ELEANOR HALL: No wonder the English hated him.

Now, from an Australian point of view it sometimes seemed as though there was a bit of a conspiracy in the English press to get at the Shane Warne off the field. Was it unfair?

GIDEON HAIGH: I don't think the English press were necessarily involved in a conspiracy to get him. I think they really rather enjoyed him. In fact, Warne has always said that he finds the English press more congenial than the Australian press. The Australian press are more inclined to be moralistic. They are more inclined to, sort of, make moral judgments about him.

I think where Warne's concerned in England, it's all in good fun, and it moves on fairly quickly. It's a much more, sort of, carnivorous and fickle celebrity culture in England.

But in Australia Warne's sort of meant to be a role model and I think he finds that difficult. He didn't ask to be a role model. All he asked to be was a cricketer.

ELEANOR HALL: Now, Shane Warne has just been saying he doesn't really care about the statistics, but presumably he will break the 700 wicket mark in the next test. But with Muralitharan still bowling, will he keep the record as highest test wicket taker?

GIDEON HAIGH: No, probably not, and that's probably one of reasons why Warne doesn't feel a pressing need to remain in the game. I think most of the, most of the pile, most of accumulated records will be Muralitharan's within a few years. The other thing that is probably beyond him now, or has been beyond him for the last few years, is the Australian captaincy. That probably would have kept him going.

But as he said the motivation was, in the immediate term, to get the Ashes back. If he had left Australian cricket at the end of 2005, there would have been unfinished business, and I think, you know, once that mission was accomplished he has always felt, as he said, that he would like to choose his going on his own terms.

ELEANOR HALL: He mentioned something about life being tumultuous and that he would have gone, as you say, at the end of last year. Do you think that it is as much about cricket as about his personal life?

GIDEON HAIGH: I think there is an element of his personal life there. It was interesting that he ruled the subject off limits at his press conference today. I think cricket's always been a kind of a faithful recourse for Warne. When everything else's gotten pear-shaped, that the game's always been there for him. But Warne also grew up in the bosom of a loving home and family, and I think he is prepared to make sacrifices in order to have one of his own.

ELEANOR HALL: Do you still think, though, that he is the greatest bowler ever?

GIDEON HAIGH: He's certainly the most exciting bowler ever. He's certainly the most fascinating that I've ever watched. He's certainly brought the greatest degree of drama and theatrics to the art of leg-spin bowling.

And you've got to remember the game, when Shane Warne arrived, was largely bereft of this wonderful transcendent skill and Warne reintroduced it. Warne, sort of, reinvigorated cricket in his own image. And I think the most interesting testament to Warne is that, despite the fact that everyone went around saying he was going to be the great populariser of leg-spin, he was going to create a whole generation of Australian leg spinners to move in his wake, they haven't arisen, they haven't. He's made look easy something that is astonishingly difficult.

ELEANOR HALL: And Gideon Haigh, just briefly, with the other Australians leaving the team, what sort of shape are they in?

GIDEON HAIGH: What sort of shape are the Australians in?

ELEANOR HALL: Yep.

GIDEON HAIGH: Look, I think that Ashes cricket over the next 10 years is going to be extremely interesting, and I think we'll see the trophy change more hands than we've become used to, and that can only be good.

ELEANOR HALL: Look, we do have a little more time. What do you think is going to be the biggest contest? I mean, with Australia losing these other two, what's the difference between the two teams there?

GIDEON HAIGH: Well, the difference between the two teams is the record of success. The fact is that Australia believe themselves to be the natural custodians of the Ashes, and that was an important psychological barrier for England to break through in 2005. They managed to do so successfully.

The Australians have re-established their hegemony, and it will be interesting to see weather the next generation of English cricketers can challenge it. I think there are lot of good young cricketers in the English side at the moment, and it will be interesting to see who fills the gaps in the Australian team.

ELEANOR HALL: Indeed. Gideon Haigh, thanks very much for joining us.

GIDEON HAIGH: My pleasure Eleanor.
 
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funnygirl

State Regular
That's because McGrath dismissed him 15 times, so he never had a chance to bat against McGrath for long. :ph34r:
No ,he was able to score a double century against Mcgrath and his average was 46 .

Against Wasim the maximum he scored was 96 and average was 37 .

So lara scored the maximum against Mcgrath like 227 and against wasim only 96 .So he faced more deliveries of Mcgrath8-)
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
As great as Warne is/was, he will never be anywhere close to Sir Don and Sir Don's legacy, neither as an individual nor as a cricketer.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I think Gideon is referring to whether there will be another entertainer/star with the talent Warne has.
 

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