*Official* South Africa in Pakistan

[shortpitched713]

Used to be a good bowler. Hasn't actually been much good for a few years now.

I'm comparing him to Naved-ul-Hasan, Mohammad Sami, and Shahid Nazir.

 

[Richard]

As posted in the English domestic thread…

According to SuperSport, Neil McKenzie not Herschelle Gibbs is Graeme Smith’s new test partner. Although, McKenzie does have competition, the same man he battled some years ago for a place in South Africa’s middle order, Boeta Dippenaar. Surprising news if this does happen for McKenzie isn’t a recognized opener but a number four by trade.

Aww, WTF? That's even more ridiculous than the times they had Hall opening with Gibbs and de Villiers in the middle-order. FFS, is it really so difficult in South Africa to pick openers to open the batting? Especially when you have about 4 of them all with a decent case for being in the side.

 

[TT Boy]

In answer to your question Richard, South Africa does not have a plethora of good openers (decent young talents in Kuhn and Elgar but that’s all they are at this moment) and at least it would seem they are looking at cricketers who could perform at this level rather than select poor domestic openers for the sake of it (many of whom are not even real openers by definition).
It’s not a great situation South Africa find themselves in but similarly Herschelle Gibbs was plucked from the middle order to open and he achieved great success, in a role which was alien to him. McKenzie maybe a revelation as opener and I would rather see him than the likes of Andrew Puttick, who hasn’t scored a run in years, Imraan Khan, Stephen Cook, Blake Snijman, Johan Botha, Loots Bosman, Alviro Petersen and a couple of journeyman cricketers whose names escape me.

But whatever happens, South Africa do need to find a settled opening pair before 2008.

 

[Richard]

What about AB de Villiers? No, no case for him opening the batting at all. Boeta Dippenaar? More of a case for him than McKenzie.

I honestly wasn't claiming I wanted Puttick or Imraan Khan to be picked, no. But was Gibbs really a middle-order player right up to his international debut?

 

[TT Boy]

Herschelle Gibbs made his debut in 1990 and it wasn’t until 1997 that he finally was opening the innings for Western Province. In that time he didn’t open the innings for Western Province B and neither did he play in the top two for South Africa A. He was middle order batsman who was pushed up the order thanks to his exploits in a couple of one day games the year previously. Also his progression to opener was helped by the retirement of Desmond Haynes and void left by Gary Kirsten, who was on international duty.

 

[Richard]

Interesting. Not least that he made his debut in 1990. He'd have been, what, 15 then wouldn't he?

TBH, though, I still hadly think Gibbs has had the most phenominal career as an opener and I'd still much prefer ABdeV to open instead of McKenzie. And Dippenaar too, FTM.

 

[TT Boy]

Interesting. Not least that he made his debut in 1990. He'd have been, what, 15 then wouldn't he?

TBH, though, I still hadly think Gibbs has had the most phenominal career as an opener and I'd still much prefer ABdeV to open instead of McKenzie. And Dippenaar too, FTM.

16 at the time.

Also I don't see AB opening anytime soon, South Africa are trying to keep his role in the team settled (in all formats) and would rather play JP Duminy as opener in 20/20 cricket than push AB back up. His expected to bat below Ashwell Prince in the test series, number four in one day cricket, below Jacques Kallis and at number three in 20/20.

 

[Richard]

I quite agree with keeping his role stable, just wish they'd settled on stability in the opening role. And quite some time ago, too.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I'm comparing him to Naved-ul-Hasan, Mohammad Sami, and Shahid Nazir.

Still hasn't been much good. Razzaq has actually been quite dire with the ball quite often.

 

[Richard]

And Sami and Rana haven't?

 

[shortpitched713]

Still hasn't been much good. Razzaq has actually been quite dire with the ball quite often.

Well we haven't played much Test cricket lately, but he was actually quite good when I saw him in England. Even such humble successes are more than can be said for the compared to bowlers.

 

[shortpitched713]

And Sami and Rana haven't?

They've been almost exclusively dire since Rana's debut. About the time in which I started seriously tuning into international cricket. And Nazir has had his moments on helpful pitches, but in the most recent Test series against SA he was as much of a scattergun as Sami, and that really takes some doing.

 

[Richard]

Yep... that was... kinda precisely what I was meaning... yeah?

 

[Pup Clarke]

Shahid Nazir quite easily > Sami, Rana imo.

 

[Richard]

Oh, by a fair bit. Not sure why sp clubbed them together TBH.

Nazir > Razzaq in his sleep.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Nazir > Razzaq in his sleep.

Well...the Razzaq of the last 3/4 years certainly.

 

[Richard]

Even before then I'd still rate Nazir better, if perhaps not in his sleep.

 

[shortpitched713]

Yep... that was... kinda precisely what I was meaning... yeah?

Was supporting your point for the benefit of our friend of many consonants.

 

[shortpitched713]

Nazir > Razzaq in his sleep.

Not so sure, Nazir's most recent opportunities have come with a the new ball. A luxury that Razzaq has not had for many years now. I am fairly confident that if Razzaq had been given the same opportunity that Nazir was given on helpful pitches he would end up with comparable figures. In my opinion they are both bowlers that benefit disproportionately from favorable bowling conditions (seam movement, uneven bounce, etc.) and as such can be quite a handful when such conditions are present. Obviously Nazir is better able to exploit such conditions than Razzaq, but Razzaq makes up for it by being not nearly so dire when conditions are unfavorable.

And this has nothing to do with his bowling, but Razzaq is a decent bat. Which means that I'd take Razzaq for my Test side over Nazir easily.

 

[shortpitched713]

Even before then I'd still rate Nazir better, if perhaps not in his sleep.

Well Nazir had probably peaked well before his most recent recall, tbh. And at that point his bowling would quite easily be better.