PhoenixFire
International Coach
Haha, that's awesome.
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Top 25 cricketers of Shane Warne's Career - as decided by CW
- Thread starter silentstriker
- Start date
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
I don't question it. I know the answer. Warne is a ***ier bowler, capable of producing the 'Wow' delivery. And he is a leg spinner who started in the early nineties and didn't totally suck.
anish_vince
Cricket Spectator
1) Rahul Dravid
2) Sachin Tendulkar
3) Murali
4) Shane Warne
5) Anil Kumble
6) Glenn McGrath
7) Sanath
8) Pollock
9) Wasim Akram
10) Waqar Younis
2) Sachin Tendulkar
3) Murali
4) Shane Warne
5) Anil Kumble
6) Glenn McGrath
7) Sanath
8) Pollock
9) Wasim Akram
10) Waqar Younis
But that's the general pattern of Lara's career isn't it? He makes a few low scores and follows it with a big one. He's just repeated this general pattern against McGrath as well - only to a slightly lesser extent than his overall career, which is to be expected since McGrath is a better bowler than most bowlers he'd have faced. It's a similar case with Tendulkar against McGrath. Unfortunately they've had proper battles only in two series - '99 in Aus and '01 in India. And Tendulkar averaged around 50 in both these series, with consistent performances but no huge scores - which is the pattern in which he's made runs in his overall career.
So IMO McGrath can be commended on not allowing the two to dominate him. But there's no basis for saying that he made them his bunnies.
Matteh
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lara:
Dismissed most by: Glenn McGrath 15, Andre Nel 8, Shane Warne 7, Angus Fraser 7, Andy Caddick 6, Allan Donald 6, Darren Gough 6, Muttiah Muralitharan 5, Anil Kumble 5, Andy Bichel 5
Tendulkar:
Dismissed most by: Glenn McGrath 6, Jason Gillespie 6, Allan Donald 5, Hansie Cronje 5, Muttiah Muralitharan 5, Chris Lewis 4, Shaun Pollock 4, Ravindra Pushpakumara 3, Shoaib Akhtar 3, Pedro Collins 3
Safe to say Lara was McGrath's bunny. Tendulkar, despite being dismissed the most by McGrath, the gap isn't as big to the next guy as it is in the case of Lara.
Dismissed most by: Glenn McGrath 15, Andre Nel 8, Shane Warne 7, Angus Fraser 7, Andy Caddick 6, Allan Donald 6, Darren Gough 6, Muttiah Muralitharan 5, Anil Kumble 5, Andy Bichel 5
Tendulkar:
Dismissed most by: Glenn McGrath 6, Jason Gillespie 6, Allan Donald 5, Hansie Cronje 5, Muttiah Muralitharan 5, Chris Lewis 4, Shaun Pollock 4, Ravindra Pushpakumara 3, Shoaib Akhtar 3, Pedro Collins 3
Safe to say Lara was McGrath's bunny. Tendulkar, despite being dismissed the most by McGrath, the gap isn't as big to the next guy as it is in the case of Lara.
How does the no. of times dismissed by McGrath tell you whether he was his bunny or not? You've got to look at the runs he scored against Aus when McGrath was playing. If the no. of times McGrath dismissed Lara is higher than other bowlers in the Australian side, that only shows McGrath's superiority over Warne,Gillespie etc.. in getting Lara out. It says nothing about his success vs Lara if you dont look at the runs scored.
Matteh
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It clearly shows that he was pretty good at getting him out regularly, regardless of the runs scored.
But this has nothing to do with making someone your bunny. It only shows the relative ability of the bowlers vs a particular batsman. A batsman could average 100 against a bowling attack and yet get out 90% of the time to 1 particular bowler - that wouldn't make him that bowler's bunny! It just shows that that bowler was far better than the rest of the attack in getting that batsman out.
Fusion
Global Moderator
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Oh no. I missed his list completely. I know why but its still my fault.
Thanks for pointing out. He is the 38th contributor.
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
That's true but I wonder if Kazo will be willing to select Wasim ahead of Mcgrath on the same basis.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Ok. I have gone back and made the corrections here is the complete list till now with some changes.
Due to complications it causes no player with invalid only invalid votes is considerd and invalid votes and the points from them are removed from those players who figure here as well.
This reduces the list to 47.
3 to 11
21 to 28
with points and votes recd in brackets
*Listed in order of their respective points in the single valid nomination recieved.
Due to complications it causes no player with invalid only invalid votes is considerd and invalid votes and the points from them are removed from those players who figure here as well.
This reduces the list to 47.
3 to 11
- 3 Tendulkar 404 - 34
- 4 McGrath 380 - 33
- 5 Warne 369 - 32
- 6 Ambrose 336 - 33
- 7 Wasim 301 - 33
- 8 Ponting 285 - 35
- 9 Waugh 226 - 31
10th joint
- Donald 158 - 24
- Dravid - 158 26
- 12 Gilchrist 132 - 24
- 13 Flower 93 - 18
- 14 Kallis 80 - 15
- 15 Waqar 49 - 14
- 16 Pollock 47 - 13
- 17 Hayden 39 - 9
- 18 Kumble 34 - 9
19 Joint
- Walsh 31 - 7
- Inzemaam 31 - 7
21 to 28
with points and votes recd in brackets
- 21 Aravinda (22 from 6)
- 22 Pietersen (29 from 3)
- 23 Jayasuriya (17 from 3)
- 24 Border (10 from 3)
- 25 Flintoff (18 from 2)
- 26 Kapil (13 from 2)
- 27 Sangakarra (8 from 2)
- 28 Anwar (6 from 2)
- Vaas
- MacGill
- Vettori
- Chanderpaul
- Monty
- Cairns
- Cullinan
- Streak
- Shoaib
- Rhodes
- Taibu
- Atherton
- May
- Price
- Thorpe
- Giles
- Carlisle
- Crowe
- Malinga
*Listed in order of their respective points in the single valid nomination recieved.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Crapppppppppppp. I made the list at the top of my head and I forgot to put in Wasim. Wasim would have come 5th/6th. And, really, probably not another fast-bowler that I'd rather watch than Wasim in full-flight.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
yeah, I wouldn't exactly call a guy my bunny if I got him out after he scored 100+ runs.... That is not how it works and that is the reason why blokes like Nel can never claim to have dominated Lara or even having mastered him.... McGrath himself confesses that Lara has had his more than his own back in their battles.... It is quite stupid to say that just because he got him out 15 times, he didn't know how to play him....
Plus, look at how many times Windies played Australia during Lara's career and how many times India played Oz during Sachin's career. Plus McGrath only played against Sachin once in Oz in a test series... Not enough to pass judgements...
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
And finally the top two
Its not a white man's game any more. hasn't been for some time yet. Or is it that the no-white fans out number their fairer counterparts. Whatever it maybe, the fact is that after an Indian at number three, we at CW, in our collective wisdom have voted for a Sri Lankan and a West Indian for the top two spots. These are also the only three to log over 400 aggregate points.
Mutthaiah Muralitharan
In 113 test matches this man has :-
- An amazing 700 test wickets at 6.2 per test match (a rate bettered by no one except Barnes for someone with a big test haul) !
- A mind blowing 60 5-fors at better than one every second game (Warne is next with 37 in 145 tests) !
- An unapproachable 20 ten wicket hauls at one every six tests (Warne is again next with half as many) !
- A fast bowler like average of 21.33. The last spinner to have a similar average was Laker half a century ago !
....and he is still playing, very close to his peak. This man has a chance to touch a thousand test wickets ! My head spins at what we may be looking at by the time he plays his last game.
No. We may debate about whether he is the greatest ever and about his legendary rivalry with the other great spinner of our time, one thing we cant argue about is that we have not chosen rashly. This man's feats do no injustice to where we have placed him.
Brian Charles Lara
Here is another man whose statistics do no injury to his fantastic skills. Lets have a quick look.
- More test runs than anyone ever !
- The highest score ever in a single test innings and the only quadruple century in a test match !
- Two of the highest scores ever made in test matches !
- The only man to score 500 runs in a first class innings !
- His two triple centuries are a feat matched only by the stand-alone Sir Don !
- His 11 test scores above 200 are also second only to Bradman's 13 !
- Five times in a test innings has he scored 50% or more of his sides total score in a completed innings. Again only Bradman has a matching record.
He may have retired but those who watched him will never forget him. His statistics do justice to his great talent but he was even bigger then these figures.
Before we announce which of the above two comes on top let me revisit the other three players in the top five.
Shane K Warne
It doesn't matter whether you agree or not that he is the greatest leg spinner ever (many say the greatest bowler ever). It doesnt matter whether you are just amused or appaled by his off-field piccadilloes. It doesn't matter whether you hold his record in India as a proof of fallibility not permitted to someone vying for the absolute pinnacle of his trade. It doesn't matter also whether you are an Australian or a Sri Lankan. The fact of the matter is that if you have seen Warne bowl in a test match (just forget odi's) you cant put your hand on your heart and not say that you have been absolutely fascinated by his mastery of this, the most difficult to master of our games many varied skills.
Now to have a look at his stats and they are not to be scoffed at too.
- More wickets that any bowler ever
- More 5 fors and more 10 in a match than anyone but his illustrious sppining contemporary from Sri Lanka
- His strike rate of 57.5 is exceptional for a leg spinner.
His average per wicket may appear high for one rated so high but it has to be kept in mind again that leg spin is a much more difficult art to master and off spin (or orthodox left arm spin) is more easily controlled. On top of that he has bowled during a period when wickets have become increasingly batsman friendly.
Glen McGrath
Some people call Kumble the spinner with a fast bowlers aggression. I like to call McGrath a fast bowler with a spinner's patience and guile. In a time of bat dominating ball, great willows and smaller grounds with docile wickets one needs all the guile of a Hedley Verity to ensnare the batsmen and ensnaring the batsmen is what 'Pigeon' McGrath has made his speciality. However, familiar a batsman may or may not be withthe location of his off stump, McGrath's bowling will constantly remind him if he forgets for even one delivery.
This is the essence of Glen McGrath and in a period where batsmen are lulled into a false sense of their own 'infallibilty' by the conditions that abound and the soaring batting averages, it is this that has enabled McGrath to keep bringing the best of them crashing down to earth.
641 test wickets the most by far by any pace bowler at a fabulous average of 21.6 which is around where the greatest bowlers would aim to be is not something to be scoffed at. But McGrath's worth has to be estimated by the consistency of his performances against all comers, on all surfaces and under all conditions.
- Of the nine test playing countries against none does he have a record that can be questioned.
- Of the last 12 calendar years of his career in test cricket, there isnt one that can be classified as poor.
- Of the nine countries that he played test matches in, there is not one where he was collared. In the 'graveyard of fast bowlers' called Pakistan he has his worst figures - a not dishonourable 19 wickets in 4 games at 31 each.
McGrath was a bowler of the type we may, I hope not, have seen the last of.
Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar
What can one say of Tendulkar? He reminded Bradman of himself and he reminded me of the greatest right-handed batsman I had ever seen - Viv Richards. Its not enough to say that he was a child prodigy. Its also not enough to say that he batted in his teens as no youngster in his teens in living memory had. Its not enough to saythat he flowered into a batsman who did justice to everything that the teenager promised except maybe what a worshipping Indian public wanted from someone who, after all, was human even if they had forgotten it. He is also not to be remembered for the mountain of statistics he is going to leave behind for future generations of batsmen to strive to climb.
Sachin Tendulkar has to be remembered for changing the face of Indian cricket. While Gavaskar provided Indians with the belief that they are not their to be trampled upon by anyone with a fast bowler or two and that we can stand and defend ourselves, Sachin provided us with the bravado-coupled with success that we had not seen from Indian players in the past. Sachin did not tell us that we were capable of defending ourselvesagainst all comers, he announced to the world that we could take the attack to the enemy and how.
When a great bowler like Warne said he had nightmares thinking Sachin was at the crease Indians virtually had orgasms. This was not something we were used to being told. From the dull-dogs ofcricket to nice-guys who bowled and played spin so well, we were batsmen who blasted bowlers around the park. And it was batsmen who ultimately defined the cricketing heroes.
Where Gavaskar had brought the purity of technique of the Golden era of English cricket, Sachin brought the ireverntarragance at the batting crease of the West Indians. That is why Sachin was treated as a God and Gavaskar never was. And that is why when Sachin failed we couldn't take it while failures of Gavasker (and there were some) were not that difficult to swallow.
This brings us to the other thing for which Sachin has to be remembered. Sachin played under a greater burden of expectations that any batsman one can think of, by far. Indians were almost cruel in what they expected of a still young Sachin. This had many effects on him and his batting. The most significant is the amount of thinking he started putting into his game when he failed. He kept asking himself what he should be doing differently to avoid failure. This seems fine and a very professional thing to do but it can put immense pressure on a player and its worse when it is someone who is intelligent and also firm in his resolve to stick to what he decids to do.
Sometimes it paid dividends as it did when he decided not to cover drive in that monumental knock in Australia but it wouldnt always. The worst thing it did was, it took away the spontaeity of Sachin Tendulkar. It was this whish was the essence of his game and it is the lack of this that made him look a completely different player. To me he stopped looking like Viv Richards everytime he started playing the game with his head.
It is amazing how, everytime Sachin has come back after a long layoff forced by oe injury or the other that he has looked so fresh in his strokeplay. Sachin should ask himself that. Being away from the game and coming back brought us a Sachin who, temporarily at least, had lost the fear of failure. It is this fear of failure that has deprived Sachin and the cricketing world of many more memorable innings.
Iftheir is one player who has not fulfilled his potential for me it is Sachin Tendulkar and I do not say it lightly and I do not say it out of emotion. How many runs a Sachin without fear would have scored is not something I would like to debate but I have no dout that he would have given us even more memorable hours of lovely cricket - stats are just a by product.
Here is some of the by product.
- Over 26000 international runs and counting !
- 78 international hundreds (besides 21 in the nineties) and counting !
- 64 MOM awards and counting !
- More runs (1796) and more centuries (4) and more scores over 50 (17) than anyone ever in World Cup matches.
- An unbelievable average of 57.9 in WC matches at a fabulous strike rate of 88.2 !
But as I said. stats are just a by product when batsmen like Tendulkar and Richards are at the crease.
Its not a white man's game any more. hasn't been for some time yet. Or is it that the no-white fans out number their fairer counterparts. Whatever it maybe, the fact is that after an Indian at number three, we at CW, in our collective wisdom have voted for a Sri Lankan and a West Indian for the top two spots. These are also the only three to log over 400 aggregate points.
Mutthaiah Muralitharan
In 113 test matches this man has :-
- An amazing 700 test wickets at 6.2 per test match (a rate bettered by no one except Barnes for someone with a big test haul) !
- A mind blowing 60 5-fors at better than one every second game (Warne is next with 37 in 145 tests) !
- An unapproachable 20 ten wicket hauls at one every six tests (Warne is again next with half as many) !
- A fast bowler like average of 21.33. The last spinner to have a similar average was Laker half a century ago !
....and he is still playing, very close to his peak. This man has a chance to touch a thousand test wickets ! My head spins at what we may be looking at by the time he plays his last game.
No. We may debate about whether he is the greatest ever and about his legendary rivalry with the other great spinner of our time, one thing we cant argue about is that we have not chosen rashly. This man's feats do no injustice to where we have placed him.
Brian Charles Lara
Here is another man whose statistics do no injury to his fantastic skills. Lets have a quick look.
- More test runs than anyone ever !
- The highest score ever in a single test innings and the only quadruple century in a test match !
- Two of the highest scores ever made in test matches !
- The only man to score 500 runs in a first class innings !
- His two triple centuries are a feat matched only by the stand-alone Sir Don !
- His 11 test scores above 200 are also second only to Bradman's 13 !
- Five times in a test innings has he scored 50% or more of his sides total score in a completed innings. Again only Bradman has a matching record.
He may have retired but those who watched him will never forget him. His statistics do justice to his great talent but he was even bigger then these figures.
Before we announce which of the above two comes on top let me revisit the other three players in the top five.
Shane K Warne
It doesn't matter whether you agree or not that he is the greatest leg spinner ever (many say the greatest bowler ever). It doesnt matter whether you are just amused or appaled by his off-field piccadilloes. It doesn't matter whether you hold his record in India as a proof of fallibility not permitted to someone vying for the absolute pinnacle of his trade. It doesn't matter also whether you are an Australian or a Sri Lankan. The fact of the matter is that if you have seen Warne bowl in a test match (just forget odi's) you cant put your hand on your heart and not say that you have been absolutely fascinated by his mastery of this, the most difficult to master of our games many varied skills.
Now to have a look at his stats and they are not to be scoffed at too.
- More wickets that any bowler ever
- More 5 fors and more 10 in a match than anyone but his illustrious sppining contemporary from Sri Lanka
- His strike rate of 57.5 is exceptional for a leg spinner.
His average per wicket may appear high for one rated so high but it has to be kept in mind again that leg spin is a much more difficult art to master and off spin (or orthodox left arm spin) is more easily controlled. On top of that he has bowled during a period when wickets have become increasingly batsman friendly.
Glen McGrath
Some people call Kumble the spinner with a fast bowlers aggression. I like to call McGrath a fast bowler with a spinner's patience and guile. In a time of bat dominating ball, great willows and smaller grounds with docile wickets one needs all the guile of a Hedley Verity to ensnare the batsmen and ensnaring the batsmen is what 'Pigeon' McGrath has made his speciality. However, familiar a batsman may or may not be withthe location of his off stump, McGrath's bowling will constantly remind him if he forgets for even one delivery.
This is the essence of Glen McGrath and in a period where batsmen are lulled into a false sense of their own 'infallibilty' by the conditions that abound and the soaring batting averages, it is this that has enabled McGrath to keep bringing the best of them crashing down to earth.
641 test wickets the most by far by any pace bowler at a fabulous average of 21.6 which is around where the greatest bowlers would aim to be is not something to be scoffed at. But McGrath's worth has to be estimated by the consistency of his performances against all comers, on all surfaces and under all conditions.
- Of the nine test playing countries against none does he have a record that can be questioned.
- Of the last 12 calendar years of his career in test cricket, there isnt one that can be classified as poor.
- Of the nine countries that he played test matches in, there is not one where he was collared. In the 'graveyard of fast bowlers' called Pakistan he has his worst figures - a not dishonourable 19 wickets in 4 games at 31 each.
McGrath was a bowler of the type we may, I hope not, have seen the last of.
Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar
What can one say of Tendulkar? He reminded Bradman of himself and he reminded me of the greatest right-handed batsman I had ever seen - Viv Richards. Its not enough to say that he was a child prodigy. Its also not enough to say that he batted in his teens as no youngster in his teens in living memory had. Its not enough to saythat he flowered into a batsman who did justice to everything that the teenager promised except maybe what a worshipping Indian public wanted from someone who, after all, was human even if they had forgotten it. He is also not to be remembered for the mountain of statistics he is going to leave behind for future generations of batsmen to strive to climb.
Sachin Tendulkar has to be remembered for changing the face of Indian cricket. While Gavaskar provided Indians with the belief that they are not their to be trampled upon by anyone with a fast bowler or two and that we can stand and defend ourselves, Sachin provided us with the bravado-coupled with success that we had not seen from Indian players in the past. Sachin did not tell us that we were capable of defending ourselvesagainst all comers, he announced to the world that we could take the attack to the enemy and how.
When a great bowler like Warne said he had nightmares thinking Sachin was at the crease Indians virtually had orgasms. This was not something we were used to being told. From the dull-dogs ofcricket to nice-guys who bowled and played spin so well, we were batsmen who blasted bowlers around the park. And it was batsmen who ultimately defined the cricketing heroes.
Where Gavaskar had brought the purity of technique of the Golden era of English cricket, Sachin brought the ireverntarragance at the batting crease of the West Indians. That is why Sachin was treated as a God and Gavaskar never was. And that is why when Sachin failed we couldn't take it while failures of Gavasker (and there were some) were not that difficult to swallow.
This brings us to the other thing for which Sachin has to be remembered. Sachin played under a greater burden of expectations that any batsman one can think of, by far. Indians were almost cruel in what they expected of a still young Sachin. This had many effects on him and his batting. The most significant is the amount of thinking he started putting into his game when he failed. He kept asking himself what he should be doing differently to avoid failure. This seems fine and a very professional thing to do but it can put immense pressure on a player and its worse when it is someone who is intelligent and also firm in his resolve to stick to what he decids to do.
Sometimes it paid dividends as it did when he decided not to cover drive in that monumental knock in Australia but it wouldnt always. The worst thing it did was, it took away the spontaeity of Sachin Tendulkar. It was this whish was the essence of his game and it is the lack of this that made him look a completely different player. To me he stopped looking like Viv Richards everytime he started playing the game with his head.
It is amazing how, everytime Sachin has come back after a long layoff forced by oe injury or the other that he has looked so fresh in his strokeplay. Sachin should ask himself that. Being away from the game and coming back brought us a Sachin who, temporarily at least, had lost the fear of failure. It is this fear of failure that has deprived Sachin and the cricketing world of many more memorable innings.
Iftheir is one player who has not fulfilled his potential for me it is Sachin Tendulkar and I do not say it lightly and I do not say it out of emotion. How many runs a Sachin without fear would have scored is not something I would like to debate but I have no dout that he would have given us even more memorable hours of lovely cricket - stats are just a by product.
Here is some of the by product.
- Over 26000 international runs and counting !
- 78 international hundreds (besides 21 in the nineties) and counting !
- 64 MOM awards and counting !
- More runs (1796) and more centuries (4) and more scores over 50 (17) than anyone ever in World Cup matches.
- An unbelievable average of 57.9 in WC matches at a fabulous strike rate of 88.2 !
But as I said. stats are just a by product when batsmen like Tendulkar and Richards are at the crease.
Last edited:
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Phew !!
That became too long. Its an article that I have been wanting to write i think
So we have the top five in the order of ranking
Rank.....Player........Votes.....Aggregate
1.............Lara............36........460
2.............Murali..........35........407
3.............Tendulkar.....34.......404
4.............McGrath......33........380
5.............Warne.........32.........369
That became too long. Its an article that I have been wanting to write i think
So we have the top five in the order of ranking
Rank.....Player........Votes.....Aggregate
1.............Lara............36........460
2.............Murali..........35........407
3.............Tendulkar.....34.......404
4.............McGrath......33........380
5.............Warne.........32.........369
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
amazing work, SJS... That article is worthy of the CW front page...
Great rankings and while the exact rankings may cause debates, I don't think there is really any doubt about the top 5 at all.......
Great rankings and while the exact rankings may cause debates, I don't think there is really any doubt about the top 5 at all.......
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
No, that's not the point here. I am not asking you who you would prefer to watch.
The point is you continue to argue that Warne is a better bowler than Mcgrath(presumely because of the wow factor), Wasim had the same (if not more) wow factor too, would you call Wasim a better bowler than Mcgrath on that basis ?