Who's The Best Bowler EVER?

[Engle]

Qadir revived the art and Warne took it to extraordinary heights.

Laxman with 26wkts and Hirwani with 66wkts cannot be credited with much, well Hirwanis feat for the statisticians, but that's about it.

 

[Sanz]

Qadir revived the art and Warne took it to extraordinary heights.

Laxman with 26wkts and Hirwani with 66wkts cannot be credited with much, well Hirwanis feat for the statisticians, but that's about it.

Who is asking for any credit here ? I never claimed that Siva/Hirwani revived the art. Just saying that it was not a dead art before Warne and there were some good spinners in the international scene before Warne. Mushtaq, Kumble, Siva, Hirwani to name a few. It just so happened that in the 90s some very good leg-spinners made it to the internatioal scene and the credit for that doesn't go to Warne. Leg Spin bowling was more competitive 15 years ago than it is now.

About Siva, Those who quote such statistics have probably not watched Siva bowl, he was an exceptional talent and it wasn't because of Qadir, He was a natural talent and a super one wasted because of Indian System. Narendra Hirwani was a good spinner as well but his work ethic sucked and when Kumble arrived who had much better work ethic than any Indian player one has seen, Hirwani just wasn't needed.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Murali for mine, although people like Marshall and Warne would be preferrable to watch imo.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

When it comes to greatest bowlers in history of cricket,Imran Khan first,Richard Hadlee a close second,Malcolm Marshall a close third & then come Wasim Akram,McGrath,Muralitharan,Warne & other bowlers.

 

[Anil]

Who is asking for any credit here ? I never claimed that Siva/Hirwani revived the art. Just saying that it was not a dead art before Warne and there were some good spinners in the international scene before Warne. Mushtaq, Kumble, Siva, Hirwani to name a few. It just so happened that in the 90s some very good leg-spinners made it to the internatioal scene and the credit for that doesn't go to Warne. Leg Spin bowling was more competitive 15 years ago than it is now.

About Siva, Those who quote such statistics have probably not watched Siva bowl, he was an exceptional talent and it wasn't because of Qadir, He was a natural talent and a super one wasted because of Indian System. Narendra Hirwani was a good spinner as well but his work ethic sucked and when Kumble arrived who had much better work ethic than any Indian player one has seen, Hirwani just wasn't needed.

agree about the talent and the utter waste of it, but i don't know whether it was because of any indian system or anything, from what i have seen and heard, the guy just was not professional enough and hardworking enough and just didn't plan his career well...and so it petered out into nothing...maybe he was lacking a mentor or an adviser or something, i don't know about that...

 

[honestbharani]

Qadir revived the art and Warne took it to extraordinary heights.

Laxman with 26wkts and Hirwani with 66wkts cannot be credited with much, well Hirwanis feat for the statisticians, but that's about it.

I didn't say they achieved great things, I just said they were there bowling leg spin in the mid 80s, which means Warney didn't have much to "revive" when he came on the scene a few years later... I bowl leg spin in the rare times I do bowl and I started doing that even before I ever knew who Shane Keith Warne was.....



He may have been a big influence in Australia and England and maybe made more ppl take up leg spin than normal over in those countries but that is about it. He didn't revive anything in the subcontinent and I dare say, in the West Indies or even in RSA.... That is just like one of those "ball of the century that turns an inch more every day" stories from the media.....

 

[Richard]

When it comes to greatest bowlers in history of cricket,Imran Khan first,Richard Hadlee a close second,Malcolm Marshall a close third & then come Wasim Akram,McGrath,Muralitharan,Warne & other bowlers.

Macko > Hadlee IMO. Imran being better than both is possible to argue, but I don't. I've always placed Marshall above the lot.

 

[Richard]

That's just one example.

leg spin was never really dead in India..... LS and Hirwani started off very very promisingly, in fact, they had better debuts than Warney....



Seriously, Warne had a lot of things going for him, but surely it is too much to call him the greatest bowler ever.... Esp. because I am sure no one has seen all the test bowlers over the last 100 years or so....

What dying art ? Anil Kumble hit the International Scene 2 years before Warne did. And how many legspinners are there in the world right now because of Shane Warne's so called revival of the dying art.

Sanz, mate Warne surely re-vitalised the dying art of leg-spin and though Kumble hit the international scene 2 years before him but at that time he was just a medium-pacer who bowled with a spinners action. There are still a lot Shane warne wannabe's around the world but then they don't make em like Warne anymore!!

So Just because there are a lot of Warne wanabies means he revived the art, There are millions of Tendulkar Wannabies in the world and that must mean Tendulkar revived the art of batting. Shane Warne made cricket very entertaining and people loved watching him more than any other spinner in the world ever but I dont think he revived the art.

As someone had already mentioned that, it was not a dying art, Laxman SivaramaKrishnan in the mids 80s and Narendra Hirwani in the late 80s were bowling legspin. While Siva suffered due to his own inability to handle the fame, Hirwani couldn't keep up with Anil Kumble, who was a Leg Spinner. If you think he was a medium pacer, then I must tell you you have never watched him bowl.

Who is asking for any credit here ? I never claimed that Siva/Hirwani revived the art. Just saying that it was not a dead art before Warne and there were some good spinners in the international scene before Warne. Mushtaq, Kumble, Siva, Hirwani to name a few. It just so happened that in the 90s some very good leg-spinners made it to the internatioal scene and the credit for that doesn't go to Warne. Leg Spin bowling was more competitive 15 years ago than it is now.

About Siva, Those who quote such statistics have probably not watched Siva bowl, he was an exceptional talent and it wasn't because of Qadir, He was a natural talent and a super one wasted because of Indian System. Narendra Hirwani was a good spinner as well but his work ethic sucked and when Kumble arrived who had much better work ethic than any Indian player one has seen, Hirwani just wasn't needed.

I didn't say they achieved great things, I just said they were there bowling leg spin in the mid 80s, which means Warney didn't have much to "revive" when he came on the scene a few years later... I bowl leg spin in the rare times I do bowl and I started doing that even before I ever knew who Shane Keith Warne was.....



He may have been a big influence in Australia and England and maybe made more ppl take up leg spin than normal over in those countries but that is about it. He didn't revive anything in the subcontinent and I dare say, in the West Indies or even in RSA.... That is just like one of those "ball of the century that turns an inch more every day" stories from the media.....

Absolutely (@ hbh and Sanz), have never ceased to be amazed that this "Warne revived wristspin" myth has gained as much credence as it has. Says a bit about CW that many realise the untruths of it.

Warne has many things going for him beyond question, but reviving a dead or dying art is not one.

 

[Richard]

I am not saying Warne > Marshall here, but seriously Rich, do u think that the effect is not the same when a fast bowler gets hooked for six and a spinner gets hit for six over his head? It is all the same and from what I have heard and read, it is just as shameful for a fast bowler to be hooked or pulled for six as it is for a spinner when the batsman goes down the track and smashes a six. You think Lillee or Botham would have been proud when Richards went after them in the way only he can. I have seen Lara jump down the track to every other ball of Allan Donald in a series. Surely, even a spinner could have done better against him.... You really do under rate the effectiveeness of spinners if u say stuff like that.

Agreed. Fatuous argument Dickinson.

I honestly don't think the effect is the same at all.

Regarding the Richards example - that's really a bit different. Richards going after seamers wasn't just about hooking, it was about playing shots just about everywhere. And as you (hbh) say, it really was fairly unique to him.

All sorts of batsmen - heck, even tailenders sometimes - go down the wicket and hit spinners over their heads. It's a shot where the batsmen chooses to try. If a seamer doesn't bowl a short ball, he can't be hooked. In any case, I'd still reckon hook-strokes come-off perfectly, by percentage, far lower than down-the-pitch-swipe-back-over-head do. If a batsman goes for a hook, it's because he's "taken the bait". The same is not neccessarily true of a spinner (though obviously of times it is).

Also, when was this Lara coming down the pitch to Donald in a Test? Can't say I've ever seen any batsman countenance such a thing TBH.

Another thing to consider is that, historically, pitches have been more in favour of fast bowlers than spinners.... It is a reason why most of the time you don't see more than 1 or at max. 2, spinners as opposed to 3 or 4 or even 5 fast and fast-medium bowlers..

Another reason, TBH, why top-quality seamers are usually preferable on an overall scale to even top-quality wristspinners.

 

[JBMAC]

When was this, then? Never heard of such a thing myself. Only time I've ever heard of where Marshall lost his temper was when Dickie Bird told him off for bowling too many short deliveries.

One I recall and just checked match stats to be sure...

5th Test vs Australia at the SCG in 1984
Marshalls bowling analysis was as follows:-
37 Overs 2 Maidens 0 wickets for a cost of 111 runs
BTW He did not need to bowl in 2nd innings as the aussies won by an innings plus

 

[umop 3p!sdn]

Does it really matter?

 

[Pup Clarke]

Just saw pioners of cricket Malcolm Marshall, he looked like some bowler and the movement he got was quite extroadinary, gone by 41.

 

[Perm]

Just saw pioners of cricket Malcolm Marshall, he looked like some bowler and the movement he got was quite extroadinary, gone by 41.

Widely regarded as the best fast bowler, if not any kind of bowler, the world has ever seen.

 

[pasag]

He's widely regarded as amongst the best fast bowlers, but from what I've come across, he's not really widely regard as the best any more than any others in the top echelon of fast bowlers are.

He is widely regard as the best fast bowler on this forum though, and by a distance I'd think.

 

[Ikki]

Absolutely (@ hbh and Sanz), have never ceased to be amazed that this "Warne revived wristspin" myth has gained as much credence as it has. Says a bit about CW that many realise the untruths of it.

Warne has many things going for him beyond question, but reviving a dead or dying art is not one.

TBF, it is echoed just as much by the professional cricketers themselves as it is by posters here.

And, of course, no secret here who I think is the greatest bowler ever. Mr. Warne, Mr Matchwinner. The erratic brilliant. The Genius. The Artist, The darling of comebacks. The maker of unbelievable believable.

 

[Ikki]

He's widely regarded as amongst the best fast bowlers, but from what I've come across, he's not really widely regard as the best any more than any others in the top echelon of fast bowlers are.

He is widely regard as the best fast bowler on this forum though, and by a distance I'd think.

I agree, whilst I personally hear his name mentioned a lot outside this forum it is in here that I, only, find such an appreciation for him.

 

[Richard]

He's widely regarded as amongst the best fast bowlers, but from what I've come across, he's not really widely regard as the best any more than any others in the top echelon of fast bowlers are.

He is widely regard as the best fast bowler on this forum though, and by a distance I'd think.

Almost everyone that I've come accross tends to say one of him and Lillee (often say "there's not much to separate them" that I say about Warne and Murali ATT), and which one varies.

As you say, though, most on this forum (myself included) have always rated Marshall as a bit special to levels no-one else has quite touched. Terribly, terribly sad that he was taken from us at 41, as Liam said.

 

[Richard]

TBF, it is echoed just as much by the professional cricketers themselves as it is by posters here.

From where, though? England and Australia, mostly, and perhaps West Indies (England and West Indies places where it's pretty much never been alive, and Australia where it certainly wasn't "dead" just that there was only one person - Jim Higgs - who bowled it too far beyond joke standard for 40 years).

I've never heard anyone (be it pro, com or forum poster) from the subcontinent describe Warne as the reviver of a dying art.

 

[Ikki]

From where, though? England and Australia, mostly, and perhaps West Indies (England and West Indies places where it's pretty much never been alive, and Australia where it certainly wasn't "dead" just that there was only one person - Jim Higgs - who bowled it too far beyond joke standard for 40 years).

I've never heard anyone (be it pro, com or forum poster) from the subcontinent describe Warne as the reviver of a dying art.

You're right, it is particularly from those 3 countries. I can't recall too many subcontinent media saying it, although I don't have their channels either.

 

[pasag]

Almost everyone that I've come across tends to say one of him and Lillee (often say "there's not much to separate them" that I say about Warne and Murali ATT), and which one varies.

I can't speak for the people you come across, obviously, but if you have a look at these examples you can see I don't think that is necessarily the case (just to clarify we're discussing other people's opinions here and not the validity of them).

ESPN Legends of cricket - Warne at 4, Lilliee at 6 and Marshall at 16
Wisden Cricketer of the Century - Warne, Lillee, Barnes, O'Reilly, Larwood, Lindwall all above him with Marshall only receiving 3 votes.

Didn't make it in Bradman's or Benaud's XIs or even the short list of the latter. My point is to repeat, from what I've come across, it isn't widely accepted that he's the greatest bowler (or even fast bowler) ever. (Obviously all those lists I brought are much criticised and are said to have many flaws, but again we're not talking about their validity here.)