• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Matt Prior as a Gloveman

iamdavid

International Debutant
Still don't see what Read did to get dropped after his last two Tests in Australia.

Looked out of his depth with the bat really, I know he was very gutsy, tried his little heart out but he looked like a number 8 at best...technically solid enough but very limited in his strokeplay, looked like he was just gonna hang around for a while then get out not like he was going to punish the bowlers if they slipped up. Which is funny because he looked a far more confident batsman with alot more conviction about his play just a few months earlier against Pakistan, maybe that was just a flash in the pan, maybe the Ashes nerves got to him or maybe it was the step up in class batting against Australia.
Keeping was tidy enough though.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Read. I think his case is even stronger now that there are six batsmen in the team.
I'm less than convinced. Unfortunately none of our bowlers (Fred excepted) can really bat to any meaningful degree so with Read in the team (even assuming we don't go back to 5 batters + Fred when he's fit again) it leaves us with too long a tail IMHO.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I think the fact that we can toss so many names into the hat is really indicative of the fact that there is no outstanding candidate. Of the names tossed around Jones & Davies have had the least impressive seasons with the bat, Foster a fairly average one whilst Read, Ambrose, Pothas & Nixon have all averaged very close to or actually 50. If we were to ignore his previous efforts at test cricket Read actually has the most compelling case; given we can't & shouldn't, Ambrose possibly should be the next cab off the rank as he's the better part of a decade younger than Pothas or Nixon.
Davies' time will hopefully still come, I hope no-one would've picked him this season even if he'd averaged 50.

Ambrose being picked this winter would be the most spectacular example for some time of jumping to the front of the queue on one season. I thought he looked fantastic (with bat and gloves) first time I saw him in 2001, but someone who can fall behind Prior has to be doing something wrong.
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Tbh Nic Pothas really has got to get a go imo. He's been easily the best wicketkepper batsmen in the county game for the last 2 or 3 seasons and I couldn't give a damn if he's 33 as the test team aren't building up to a WC where younger players might have to be given a go. Pothas and Read for the Sri Lankan tour imo.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Tests aren't relevant to the WC. Either way, I'd not be best keen on making a Test debut at 33. You're going to have 2 decent seasons at best.

I'd prefer someone like Foster who might be less good for 1 year, but would hopefully last 7 or 8 years if needed.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm a Prior fan. He's aggressive with the bat and doesn't take no prisoners! I think his keeping will improve with the more time he spends at test level.
Of course, let's treat test cricket as a finishing school for underprepared youngsters.

Read, Foster and Pothas are the finished article. Solid with the gloves and solid with the bat. Read's batting is massively underrated and is still suffering for *that* dismissal by Chris Cairns nearly 10 years ago. Read did decently with the bat against Pakistan; much better than Prior has managed against India and he was hardly the only batsman to come unstuck against Australia. How quickly people forget your successes when you've had one or two embarrassing failures. Also, would we still be having this debate if James Foster hadn't broken his arm after coming back from a relatively successful tour of India and NZ - averaging 25 with the bat after only one season of first class cricket and in some of the toughest conditions for a youngster to start a test career was fantastic. Its a shame he never got the chance to prove himself in English conditions in 2002.

Prior is an also-ran. He was average against Zimbabwe in those ODIs several years back and to my eyes, he's hardly improved since. His dismissal in the 1st innings at the Oval was characteristic of someone lacking in the mental toughness to fight it out when his team's back is against the wall and illustrates for me that he's only good enough to be considered a fairweather batsman who'll only score when the going is exceptionally easy. It doesn't help his cause either that there's the 'nepotistic' (not the right word, granted, but I don't know the equivalent for county bias) Sword of Damacles hanging over his head which fans of other counties will always hold against him.
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Right...here's the County Championship averages for the contenders this year.

Read - 699 @ 63
Jones - 490 @ 32
Davies - 391 @ 27
Ambrose - 701 @ 53
Pothas - 549 @ 54
Batty - 656 @ 38
Foster - 593 @ 37

I think we'll establish that Jones and Davies are out of the picture for Sri Lanka so it probably comes down to Read, Ambrose, Pothas or Foster for the 2nd wicketkeeping position with Prior 1st choice.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Of course, let's treat test cricket as a finishing school for underprepared youngsters.

Read, Foster and Pothas are the finished article. Solid with the gloves and solid with the bat. Read's batting is massively underrated and is still suffering for *that* dismissal by Chris Cairns nearly 10 years ago. Read did decently with the bat against Pakistan; much better than Prior has managed against India and he was hardly the only batsman to come unstuck against Australia. How quickly people forget your successes when you've had one or two embarrassing failures. Also, would we still be having this debate if James Foster hadn't broken his arm after coming back from a relatively successful tour of India and NZ - averaging 25 with the bat after only one season of first class cricket and in some of the toughest conditions for a youngster to start a test career was fantastic. Its a shame he never got the chance to prove himself in English conditions in 2002.
I don't agree, TBH - Foster was at that time a semi-decent, gutsy lower-order batsman. Alec Stewart, on the other hand, was (as he always was) a proven class top-order batsman. What's more, he was still one of if not the best wicketkeeper in the country. It'd have been a travesty if Stewart's career was ended by a (at that time) pretty well nothing player in Foster. I'm really, seriously wondering if we'd not be better with him still playing, 4 years after he was hounded (prematurely, IMO) into retirement.

Nonetheless, Foster has undoubtedly merited another go and if I had been told "it's between Prior and Foster" at the start of the summer, I'd have gone for Foster as, despite his inferior overall careeer record, he's clearly IMO the better batsman (and gloveman from all reports too).

As to Read, his is a tricky situation. No, he wasn't alone in failing in Australia, but it's not just the events of 1999 that have counted against him, those of 2003 and 2004 are far more significant. Read should never, ever have been playing in 1999, he was 20 years old, had barely been in Notts' first-team a season, and it was insane to waste Stewart's all-round capabilities. In 2003 and 2004, on the other hand, he had been talked-up by near enough everyone as the reason Stewart had to go (which was, I said at the time, stupid as Read will clearly never be the batsman Stewart was) and clearly did deserve his chance. Yet even in Geraint Jones' darkest days, he still looked (if not performed) better than Read. I honestly can't ever see Read making the grade in Tests, though I still feel (as I have since the first game after the 2003 WC) that he's the best man for the job in ODIs.

As for Pothas, he should have been in the team at the start of the summer IMO. Nonetheless, he's not getting any younger and I think his time's probably passed.
Prior is an also-ran. He was average against Zimbabwe in those ODIs several years back and to my eyes, he's hardly improved since.
Scoring 35 in your single innings? Neither here nor there IMO, and in any case I made precisely no judgement whatsoever based on the happenings of that series, or any other against Zimbabwe of late.
His dismissal in the 1st innings at the Oval was characteristic of someone lacking in the mental toughness to fight it out when his team's back is against the wall and illustrates for me that he's only good enough to be considered a fairweather batsman who'll only score when the going is exceptionally easy. It doesn't help his cause either that there's the 'nepotistic' (not the right word, granted, but I don't know the equivalent for county bias) Sword of Damacles hanging over his head which fans of other counties will always hold against him.
But don't let that give you the idea that I rate Prior's batting - I never have and a good series against West Indies did not convince me.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I was never that big a fan of Stewart as keeper-batsman, though I realise it solved a good number of problems for England at the time. Stewart was a wonderful batsman to watch when he was in form, and sadly the keeping duties reduced the times that this happened to some extent.

Also, I'm sure I remember Prior playing a few more awful games on that tour to Africa in 04/05.... presumably he must have failed against a Zimbo state side, or maybe Kenya or Namibia or someone like that... Maybe my memory fails me...

As for your opinion about Read, I think you will find that that dismissal against Cairns sticks in a lot more people's memories than you'd think. Obviously you and I know more than to judge a guy on one dismissal, but there's plenty of people out there willing to condemn a man's career on just such a basis. I seriously doubt those type of people would care whether Stewart was jettisoned early or not... What sticks in their mind are schoolboy type dismissals.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I was never that big a fan of Stewart as keeper-batsman, though I realise it solved a good number of problems for England at the time. Stewart was a wonderful batsman to watch when he was in form, and sadly the keeping duties reduced the times that this happened to some extent.
:blink: You're kidding, surely? This is a man who took the wicketkeeping gloves almost every Test between the end of 1996 and the end of his career in 2003, and scored runs almost without fail. IIRR he averaged around 39 as wicketkeeper-batsman (and something everso slightly higher as opener-and-non-keeper) once he made the position his own, which is a marvellous effort.

The problems were in 1990-1996 when he was being tossed to and fro from the role, having just 2 (bad) full series with the gloves in that time (1993 and 1995). In those days, he averaged just 25 with the gloves.

He adapted magnificently, though, and for the second half of his career was a player of the calibre we are unlikely to see again any time in the near future.
Also, I'm sure I remember Prior playing a few more awful games on that tour to Africa in 04/05.... presumably he must have failed against a Zimbo state side, or maybe Kenya or Namibia or someone like that... Maybe my memory fails me...
Don't think so, he was generally thought to have done the tiny little amount he had the chance to do on that tour well. "Supped briefly at the top table then returned unnoticed to take his seat amongst the masses". It was the following winter that his awfulness in ODIs was exposed.
As for your opinion about Read, I think you will find that that dismissal against Cairns sticks in a lot more people's memories than you'd think. Obviously you and I know more than to judge a guy on one dismissal, but there's plenty of people out there willing to condemn a man's career on just such a basis. I seriously doubt those type of people would care whether Stewart was jettisoned early or not... What sticks in their mind are schoolboy type dismissals.
Those people don't number England selectors (or clued-up pressmen, either) though. Only those who don't really know a huge amount about cricket and have no real influence on selection. IMO what counted against Read and what saw him jettisoned after just 2 Tests (twice) in his most recent incarnation was more 2003 and 2004 than 1999.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
:blink: You're kidding, surely? This is a man who took the wicketkeeping gloves almost every Test between the end of 1996 and the end of his career in 2003, and scored runs almost without fail. IIRR he averaged around 39 as wicketkeeper-batsman (and something everso slightly higher as opener-and-non-keeper) once he made the position his own, which is a marvellous effort....

Don't think so, he was generally thought to have done the tiny little amount he had the chance to do on that tour well. "Supped briefly at the top table then returned unnoticed to take his seat amongst the masses". It was the following winter that his awfulness in ODIs was exposed.
.
Not kidding at all about Stewart. You obviously see things differently from your English point of view that I.
Also, my comment about Stewart was meant to encapsulate his whole career rather than one stage of it. Just because he averaged 39 as keeper-batsman doesn't mean that he wouldn't have averaged considerably better if he'd been allowed to concentrate solely on his batting!!

Just looked up Prior. He did have a shocker against Namibia. Out for 17 after Solanki and Bell had seen off the new ball. I think that's the other game I'm thinking of.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Right...here's the County Championship averages for the contenders this year.

Read - 699 @ 63
Jones - 490 @ 32
Davies - 391 @ 27
Ambrose - 701 @ 53
Pothas - 549 @ 54
Batty - 656 @ 38
Foster - 593 @ 37

I think we'll establish that Jones and Davies are out of the picture for Sri Lanka so it probably comes down to Read, Ambrose, Pothas or Foster for the 2nd wicketkeeping position with Prior 1st choice.
Pothas should go as back-up for me. It would be interesting to know who in in division 1 or 2 this season, that would play a huge part in deciding who gets picked. Without checking the stats i know Pothas, Ambrose are in Division 1 while Read is in Division 2.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Not kidding at all about Stewart. You obviously see things differently from your English point of view that I.
Also, my comment about Stewart was meant to encapsulate his whole career rather than one stage of it. Just because he averaged 39 as keeper-batsman doesn't mean that he wouldn't have averaged considerably better if he'd been allowed to concentrate solely on his batting!!
I see things differently in that the principal time of Stewart's career I remember is the one where he was a very, very fine wicketkeeper-batsman; many people I've argued against judge, IMO, too much by the earlier time when he was regularly to-and-froing and often scoring not-much when he had the gloves on.

Stewart's career was actually a rather fascinating one, and it wasn't until the 1996\97 season that he became settled as a middle-order-bat-***-wicketkeeper. Until then, he rarely had more than 3 or 4 Tests in the same role, be that middle-order bat, opening bat, wicketkeeper, non-wicketkeeper, etc. Maybe I might do a thread...
Just looked up Prior. He did have a shocker against Namibia. Out for 17 after Solanki and Bell had seen off the new ball. I think that's the other game I'm thinking of.
Ah right. Didn't take much notice of those Namibia games I'm afraid, one of them was even a 12-a-sider (which I never give a flying about).
 

archie mac

International Coach
TBH there are people who can do as good a job with the gloves who almost certainly offer more runs.
Well I would like to see them! Every other keeper I have seen of late (for England) drop far too many catches, surely this not only costs heaps of runs but also deflates the bowlers
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Jones of late and Read just about any time haven't dropped too many. Nor has Prior until this Test.

All wicketkeepers drop the occasional catch, even Alec Stewart missed the odd one occasionally (though I can barely think of one in about his last 20-odd Tests :blink: ).
 

archie mac

International Coach
Jones of late and Read just about any time haven't dropped too many. Nor has Prior until this Test.

All wicketkeepers drop the occasional catch, even Alec Stewart missed the odd one occasionally (though I can barely think of one in about his last 20-odd Tests :blink: ).
Prior looked 2nd rate as did Jones in the Ashes Tests I watched him play. Keepers drop catches, but good keepers only drop those that average keepers would not even get too

Stewart was okay, but not in the top bracket for my money
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
I do find it funny how over rated Stewart keeping is by many Englishmen. He was ok but a fair way below the top bracket of keepers.

Also as Archie Mac says the thing with Prior is that he may not drop many catches per say, but there will be many catches (or half chances) that he will get no where near due to poor foot work.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
I do find it funny how over rated Stewart keeping is by many Englishmen. He was ok but a fair way below the top bracket of keepers.

Also as Archie Mac says the thing with Prior is that he may not drop many catches per say, but there will be many catches (or half chances) that he will get no where near due to poor foot work.
Agreed completely on Stewart, his keeping got the job done more often than not, he was a good athlete and stayed pretty mobile even as he aged. But he was by no means from the top drawer of keepers, can remember him looking scrappy on several occasions namely against Australia 2001 Ashes, he was safe enough but far from spectacular.

I think the lack of success from his succesors has romanticised the idea of Stewart as a very good keeper, to be completely honest I dont think his glovework was any better than most of the current bunch (what Ive seen of them anyway), slightly superior keeping to Jones and Prior and slightly inferior to Foster and Read. Spose the big thing was Stewart was worth his place on batting alone and none of the current bunch have shown that or are at all likely to.
 

Top