So I Walked Into A Bar...

[gettingbetter]

...and I met this big, drunk, bumbling Englishman (we're in Australia for the sake of argument) and we started to have a chat about this that and the other. Eventually, it got onto cricket and he mentioned Shane Warne, which led to Monty, which led to racial diversification in English cricket.

Someone who was fixing the pokies there sat down and joined in on the conversation and the discussion quickly led to KP. Quickly, we were talking about how Strauss, Prior and many other players have been born in other countries and have found anew home in England. The usual chit-chat was said and my two cents went something along the lines of 'I don't really mind, but I just find it interesting that KP represented SA at under 19s level, but now he plays for England?'

The big, drunk lad said - 'even without KP, we'd still be second best.'

Now for the sake of this argument, please don't argue that whether England are the number 2 ranked, but I don't think anyone on this board would say that England would be as good without KP. I really don't.

I'd also like to hear opinions about people who are born in other countries playing for another - the KP incident. Where do you draw the line? For you English fans, could you specifically include the 'KP' situation to something like Saqlain Mustaq's proposition.

 

[Richard]

The Gaplain Boys just laughed at him, as he walked into the bar-room.

 

[Richard]

Anyway, IMO people should be able to play for whoever they want, really, there's no fair way of barring that, it leads to exclusionism which I'm always against. Players can play for whatever club or county\state\province they want, countries are just the next level up.

As for would we be as good without Pietersen - no, obviously not. Would we still be 2nd-best? I've doubted we were since we failed to beat Lanka last summer, and now we've failed to beat India too that's pretty much confirmed. Only sides we've been able to beat in the last year have been those with bowling-attacks so weak as to virtually beggar belief.

 

[archie mac]

I think KP their best batsman so no, I don't think they would be as good, or No.2 in the World without him

 

[Dasa]

1. England obviously wouldn't be as good without their best batsman, although without KP in the team it might've given Rob Key a chance.
2. I don't care who plays for which team - it wouldn't bother me if someone had played 50+ Tests for one team and then moved to another country and played Tests for them.

 

[gettingbetter]

2. I don't care who plays for which team - it wouldn't bother me if someone had played 50+ Tests for one team and then moved to another country and played Tests for them.

No qualms with Saqlain playing (if he gets selected)?

 

[Matt79]

No qualms, although I think the current qualification rules (must be a permanent resident, if not citizen, for four years IIRC?) are good, to prevent people changing country willy-nilly...

 

[Dasa]

No qualms with Saqlain playing (if he gets selected)?

No qualms at all.

 

[pasag]

I don't like it tbh. Not for any real logical reason though, it just doesn't seem right.

 

[Steulen]

I think the issue with the English is that they often seem to have so many non-England born players in their Test team while at the same time the English first-class county system is the most extensive and best payed cricket structure in the world. Somehow it doesn't seem right that so many players who originated outside of England float to the top of it.

Anyway, I firmly believe being born in a certain country puts no obligation whatsoever on you to be loyal to that country. It then logically follows that any cricket player should be able to choose which country to play for should the opportunity arise.

Having said that, I do have issues with certain players, like Ed Joyce, being forced into loyalty to a Test nation because it is impossible for them to play at the highest level for the country they carry a passport of.

As for KP, he brings a volatility to their batting that would otherwise be sorely missing. Should he become a Saffie overnight again, England would maybe lose 10-20 runs a match on average, as he would simply be replaced by one of those batsmen in the Strauss Bell Collingwood mould perfectly capable of averaging 40-something. However, they would lose the ability that KP now provides to turn a match in one session while batting. So they would definitely suffer and would be more likely to lose or not win close matches, thus slipping down the rankings eventually.

And for the record, a #2 spot claim seems a bit far-fetched if you can't even beat India and Sri Lanka at home.

 

[gettingbetter]

I think the issue with the English is that they often seem to have so many non-England born players in their Test team

Don't get mixed up between non-English born and Englishmen of a non-English background - Panesar, Mahmood, S. Jones and G. Jones are a few of recent years as opposed to KP, Strauss and Trott who were all born in South Africa with KP and Trott both qualifying to be eligible to play for England.

English first-class county system is the most extensive and best payed cricket structure in the world.

Probably OT and probably for another thread, but how so?

And for the record, a #2 spot claim seems a bit far-fetched if you can't even beat India and Sri Lanka at home.

...and thats why I said not to discuss it .

 

[steds]

Someone who was fixing the pokies there sat down and joined in on the conversation and the discussion quickly led to KP. Quickly, we were talking about how Strauss, Prior and many other players have been born in other countries and have found anew home in England.

It really annoys me how people like Strauss and Prior are put in the same box as Pietersen. Strauss has an English mother and has lived here since he as 6, Prior came here when he was 11. Both would have been raised, to some extent, as English. Pietersen was South African born, South African bred, started his First Class career in South Africa and appears to have come here because he had the hump with South Africa rather than out of any desire to represent England. I don't object to him playing for England, because he has an English mother, didn't represent South Africa at a senior level before coming here. I do object when he says crap like "no-one can say I'm not English" though. Because he obviously isn't.

Would be deadset against someone like Saqlain playing for England.

 

[steds]

Don't get mixed up between non-English born and Englishmen of a non-English background - Panesar, Mahmood, S. Jones and G. Jones are a few of recent years as opposed to KP, Strauss and Trott who were all born in South Africa

What seperates Geraint Jones from Strauss? Not born in England, no English blood, raised in Queensland. Strauss is more English than Geraint.

Simon Jones isn't English either. Welsh != Englishman of a non-English background

 

[Steulen]

Don't get mixed up between non-English born and Englishmen of a non-English background - Panesar, Mahmood, S. Jones and G. Jones are a few of recent years as opposed to KP, Strauss and Trott who were all born in South Africa with KP and Trott both qualifying to be eligible to play for England.

What's the difference, really?

Probably OT and probably for another thread, but how so?

18 teams, 4 competitions, visiting A teams from other countries, UCCE teams...there's a whole lot of cricket going on within the county set-up and a whole load of cash changing hands..
The County Championship is decided over 16 games, wheres for instance in Australia's domestic competition it's 10 plus a final for the top two...that's a fair difference.

...and thats why I said not to discuss it .

Wasn't a discussion point, just a factual statement

 

[sideshowtim]

What seperates Geraint Jones from Strauss? Not born in England, no English blood, raised in Queensland. Strauss is more English than Geraint.

Simon Jones isn't English either. Welsh != Englishman of a non-English background

So what? It's officially known as the England and Wales Cricket Board. England = Wales when it comes to international cricket.

 

[Steulen]

So what? It's officially known as the England and Wales Cricket Board. England = Wales when it comes to international cricket.

Doesn't say so on the scorecard though.

 

[steds]

So what? It's officially known as the England and Wales Cricket Board. England = Wales when it comes to international cricket.

Perhaps so, but that's not the point. They're still different countries. I never said Simon Jones shouldn't play for England. I said it would be wrong to call Simon Jones English, because he isn't. Fact.

 

[sideshowtim]

Doesn't say so on the scorecard though.

That's true, and many Welsh cricket fans get upset about this. The 'England' national team represents both England and Wales, yet Wales get none of the credit...well anywhere...not that many people know that England and Wales are represented by the same team. It has often led to calls for Wales to have their own cricket team.

 

[Matteh]

Wales do have their own team - MC Wales are currently 8th in the West Division of the Minor Counties Championship.

 

[steds]

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