***Official*** India in England

[Turbinator]

Optimistic as ever, As.

Trust me, I gaurantee you India won't lose this one. Mainly because of the type of weather we'll experience and because it's only 2 days left and England still have to get a quite a few runs on the board, and then the Indian batting is yet to come, I am sure they'll dish out a much better effort in their 2nd innings. Dravid and Tendulkar will help save this test, I assure you that.

If, and only if, Vaughan makes a sporting declaration, we have a game on our hands and a result will be achieved.

The great pity of this series currently being played is that England will dominate so much their Rankings will bring them up to a comfortable second place and as Indian Cricket is struggling so much it hardly seems like a fair contest.

Doubt it, it's not like England are completely and utterly outclassing them. Indians have had their moments in this Test match, they just need to get their heads together.

I still strongly stand by my 1-0 India prediction.

Karthik has simultaneously kept wicket and opened the batting before for Tamil Nadu on several occasions. Given that he is probably the fittest member of the Indian squad, that should not be a huge worry (obviously, it is something to consider). Karthik >>> Dhoni with the gloves, worth it as things stand IMO.

Yes, but it could have a negative effect on his batting, in fact it most likely will, no matter how fit he is. It's much better if he just focuses on his batting. He needs to be out there batting his best for India.

 

[adharcric]

Keeping and opening in a test match is one of the most demanding tasks physically for a test cricketer. Regardless of how fit you are, to concentrate properly in international matches - you are keeping to Kumble, then jumping left and right to catch the straying deliveries; next thing you know you are to tackle the swinging ball - is a pretty difficult task and thank god we are not going down that road at least.

The second talking point - playing both Karthik and Dhoni is pretty ridiculous. I watched Karthik's inning and he seemed to have no clue against the moving ball - looked completely out of sorts. Maybe he will improve some how and go on to score some runs and repay the faith Dravid has had in him but I would be very surprised if a Yuvraj or some other first class batsman could not do a better job than Karthik opening. It is time we put an end to the crazy trend of having keepers open - Mongia, Deep Dasgupta, Parthiv Patel come to mind immediately.

Completely agree with you here. Even though Karthik may be able to handle double duties, it would not be a wise option (as Turd said). Do we have any other options if Dhoni fails again in the second innings? Karthik has to keep and if he doesn't open, he will come in at 7. In that case, you have Gambhir opening and Yuvraj remains on the bench. Not such a bad option IMO, especially as Gambhir provides the same value as Yuvraj does in the field (versatile fielder, especially at point and short leg). Of course, Gambhir hasn't convinced too many of his ability to play quality bowling in England. Let's see how Dhoni fares - some tough decisions may need to be taken by Dravid.

 

[Sanz]

Keeping and opening in a test match is one of the most demanding tasks physically for a test cricketer. Regardless of how fit you are, to concentrate properly in international matches - you are keeping to Kumble, then jumping left and right to catch the straying deliveries; next thing you know you are to tackle the swinging ball - is a pretty difficult task and thank god we are not going down that road at least.

The second talking point - playing both Karthik and Dhoni in the XI is pretty ridiculous. I watched Karthik's inning and he seemed to have no clue against the moving ball - looked completely out of sorts. Maybe he will improve some how and go on to score some runs and repay the faith Dravid has had in him but I would be very surprised if a Yuvraj or some other first class batsman could not do a better job than Karthik opening. It is time we put an end to the crazy trend of having keepers open - Mongia, Deep Dasgupta, Parthiv Patel come to mind immediately.

I still fail to understand why we got rid of Parthiv Patel, agreed he was a poor wicketkeeper, but he was miles ahead of Dinesh and Dhoni as a batsman and I would rather have him open the innings than dinesh karthik.

 

[Sanz]

Completely agree with you here. Even though Karthik may be able to handle double duties, it would not be a wise option (as Turd said). Do we have any other options if Dhoni fails again in the second innings? Karthik has to keep and if he doesn't open, he will come in at 7. In that case, you have Gambhir opening and Yuvraj remains on the bench. Not such a bad option IMO, especially as Gambhir provides the same value as Yuvraj does in the field (versatile fielder, especially at point and short leg). Of course, Gambhir hasn't convinced too many of his ability to play quality bowling in England. Let's see how Dhoni fares - some tough decisions may need to be taken by Dravid.

Then the bigger question is - Is karthick good enough with the bat to open the innings for India ? Is he better than Gambhir, Parthiv Patel, Chopra, etc. I guess not.

 

[Pratters]

I still fail to understand why we got rid of Parthiv Patel, agreed he was a poor wicketkeeper, but he was miles ahead of Dinesh and Dhoni as a batsman and I would rather have him open the innings than dinesh karthik.

Patel would have learned immensely from that period and experience. It was very much right that he was dropped at that time as he couldn't hold his own as a keeper in the side. He does have a chance to get back into this team in the recent future though. He is playing as part of India A as vice captain and he has himself said in an interview that he hopes he can get in a few good performances to get back into the side.

I wouldn't want any one of the standard of even Patel to open for us though. His FC batting record is still average:

First-class 71 105 17 2577 129 29.28 2 14 169 30

It sends a very wrong message to the openers and middle order batsmen in India - the Badrinaths for instance when you have a keeper who isn't a specialist batsman open - that the selectors don't have any faith in you guys. It is dire how we haven't taken two reserve batsmen to England in the squad or have Yuvraj Singh sitting in the dressing room while we have a Karthik opening.

 

[adharcric]

I still fail to understand why we got rid of Parthiv Patel, agreed he was a poor wicketkeeper, but he was miles ahead of Dinesh and Dhoni as a batsman and I would rather have him open the innings than dinesh karthik.

Patel > Karthik and Dhoni with the bat? Very debatable at this point. By the way, keeping is more important than batting for test keepers.

 

[adharcric]

Patel was a poor keeper back then as you say and it was unfair on him more than any one to be blooded so fast in international cricket I thought. He does have a chance to get back into this team in the recent future though. He is touring with India A as vice captain and he has himself said in an interview that he hopes he can get in a few good performances to get back into the side.

I wouldn't want any one of the standard of even Patel to open for us though. His FC batting record is still average:

First-class 71 105 17 2577 129 29.28 2 14 169 30

It sends a very wrong message to the openers and middle order batsmen - the Badrinaths for instance when you have a keeper who isn't a specialist batsman open - that the selectors don't have any faith in you guys. It is dire how we haven't taken two reserve batsmen to England in the squad or have Yuvraj Singh sitting in the dressing room while we have a Karthik opening.

Karthik seized his opportunity as an opener and he's been rewarded with an extended run. Given that, his first-class record as an opener hardly matters right now. Of course, the selectors should be looking at domestic batsmen but do we really have options? Chopra is the obvious one but he hasn't exactly set the domestic circuit on fire with his run-scoring over the past few years. Gambhir is a domestic giant but he threw it away in his first stint, did more than enough to earn a recall and still hasn't been given a chance to open. Beyond that, you have Uthappa and that's about it for now.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't think it was ever really planned for Karthik to be a long-term opening option - it just sort of worked out that way. In South Africa, it was very evident that Sehwag simply could not open the batting any longer.. and given Karthik was the only man left in the squad, he was thrown up there. To his credit, he really made a good first of it.. this last ONE innings aside, he's looked really good - he is more technically sound than the likes of Gambhir and Yuvraj in terms of test match opening IMO, and he averaged over 65 opening before this match started. Given the success he was enjoying, and the way he truly looked like a genuine opener while he was out there, he's been given an extended run.

I can see that people have been sweating on him failing just once so they could rip into the selection, but I think it is justified given the way he's performed there so far. If he can keep wicket and still average 30-35 opening, I think it'd balance the side perfectly, with Yuvraj or possibly even an allrounder if one emerges batting at #7. Obviously it is extremely demanding, but it's something he should perhaps be given an opportunity at, given the other options available and the way he has handled opening so far.

 

[Sanz]

Patel would have learned immensely from that period and experience. It was very much right that he was dropped at that time as he couldn't hold his own as a keeper in the side. He does have a chance to get back into this team in the recent future though. He is playing as part of India A as vice captain and he has himself said in an interview that he hopes he can get in a few good performances to get back into the side.

I wouldn't want any one of the standard of even Patel to open for us though. His FC batting record is still average:

First-class 71 105 17 2577 129 29.28 2 14 169 30

It sends a very wrong message to the openers and middle order batsmen in India - the Badrinaths for instance when you have a keeper who isn't a specialist batsman open - that the selectors don't have any faith in you guys. It is dire how we haven't taken two reserve batsmen to England in the squad or have Yuvraj Singh sitting in the dressing room while we have a Karthik opening.

The point is we are playing two wicket keepers and neither of them are good enough as batsman to hold their position in the team. Karthik is not a natural opener, the only reason he has been opening for his state is because that gives him a better chance of making it to the Indian team. He is not a natural wicket Keeper either.

I am not arguing for Patel as a wicketkeeper, but just as a batsman. In 2004 before he was dropped Patel showed remarkeble guts and improvement as a batsman and If we are going to play two wicketkeepers in the team then why not play Patel ahead of Karthik.

 

[Sanz]

I can see that people have been sweating on him failing just once so they could rip into the selection, but I think it is justified given the way he's performed there so far. If he can keep wicket and still average 30-35 opening, I think it'd balance the side perfectly, with Yuvraj or possibly even an allrounder if one emerges batting at #7. Obviously it is extremely demanding, but it's something he should perhaps be given an opportunity at, given the other options available and the way he has handled opening so far.

TBF, I am all for Karthik opening but only If he is going to keep wickets. I dont think MS Dhoni needs to be anywhere near Indian test team as abatsman and it was a pity that Yuvraj was sitting out and two wicketkeepers were playing the test.

 

[Pratters]

Karthik seized his opportunity as an opener and he's been rewarded with an extended run. Given that, his first-class record as an opener hardly matters right now.

First class records provide an indication that even if you score some good innings here or there, you may not keep on performing that way. More often than not, they are good indicators that you wont be very good if your FC record is not very good. If there is a doubt regarding improvements, take recent FC stats (provided the sample size is big enough). Karthik isn't an opener. Hell, he isn't even a specialist batsman to hold his own at the highest test level as an opener. He did his job earlier but can never be taken as the short term or long term option. We should go for opening with people who are specialist batsmen and Karthik isn't one.

Of course, the selectors should be looking at domestic batsmen but do we really have options? Chopra is the obvious one but he hasn't exactly set the domestic circuit on fire with his run-scoring over the past few years. Gambhir is a domestic giant but he threw it away in his first stint, did more than enough to earn a recall and still hasn't been given a chance to open. Beyond that, you have Uthappa and that's about it for now.

Just because some one is successful at the domestic level does not mean that he will be successful at the international level. However, if you are not even a specialist batsman at the FC level, it is almost impossible that you will be at the international level. Analyse Karthik's international career a bit more deeply:

in Bangladesh 4 5 0 243 129 56 25 48.60 1 1 0
in India 6 9 0 207 93 46 28 23.00 0 1 0
in South Africa 1 2 1 101 63 38* - 101.00 0 1 0
in Zimbabwe 2 2 0 2 1 1 - 1.00 0 0 0

It is not that impressive. Even Deep Dasgupta has scored a test hundred. A few innings hardly mean any thing.

What options do we have? If we can't find a good opener, a middle order specialist FC batsman would be a better option than a non specialist.

 

[Pratters]

I can see that people have been sweating on him failing just once so they could rip into the selection

Like who? I think Sanz commented even before he failed in the first inning and I can assure you that I certainly would have maintained the same before and after the inning. My argument in the previous post doesn't even include the England inning stat to put forth my point.

 

[adharcric]

He is not a natural wicket Keeper either.

Uhh what? Karthik is probably the best keeper in India.

 

[Pratters]

The point is we are playing two wicket keepers and neither of them are good enough as batsman to hold their position in the team....

I am not arguing for Patel as a wicketkeeper, but just as a batsman. In 2004 before he was dropped Patel showed remarkeble guts and improvement as a batsman and If we are going to play two wicketkeepers in the team then why not play Patel ahead of Karthik.

Patel can't hold his own in the team as a batsman either. His FC record in recent times have not been brilliant.

2005-06 (India) 9 16 2 332 56 23.71 0 1 30 9
2006 (Australia) 2 3 0 86 43 28.66 0 0 5
2006-07 (India) 8 14 1 342 103 26.30 1 1 23 4

Who is better among Karthik and Patel as a batsman is not relevent to me as they are both not good enough batting wise for me and I wouldn't play two keepers but I get what you are saying.

 

[Sanz]

Like who? I think Sanz commented even before he failed in the first inning and I can assure you that I certainly would have maintained the same before and after the inning. My argument in the previous post doesn't even include the England inning stat to put forth my point.

True that. I made my first comment on Karthik/Dhoni issue before Indian 1st inning batting.

 

[Sanz]

Patel can't hold his own in the team as a batsman either. His FC record in recent times have not been brilliant..

I haven't followed Patel's career recently but when he was dropped he was batting really well (in 2004 he averaged around 43 ), then also I had maintained that he should be played as batsman alone.

 

[Sanz]

Uhh what? Karthik is probably the best keeper in India.

He wasn't always a wicket keeper and he is not a natural wicket keeper like Mongia or More.

 

[adharcric]

First class records provide an indication that even if you score some good innings here or there, you may not keep on performing that way. More often than not, they are good indicators that you wont be very good if your FC record is not very good. If there is a doubt regarding improvements, take recent FC stats (provided the sample size is big enough). Karthik isn't an opener. Hell, he isn't even a specialist batsman to hold his own at the highest test level as an opener. He did his job earlier but can never be taken as the short term or long term option. We should go for opening with people who are specialist batsmen and Karthik isn't one.

Disagree. FC stats can help selectors identify candidates for national selection but they should not make too much of a difference after that. Once you are in test cricket, the only thing that matters is what you do in test cricket. Karthik has looked quite good as a test opener thus far, apart from yesterday's dimissal. Give him a chance - he's earned it.

Just because some one is successful at the domestic level does not mean that he will be successful at the international level. However, if you are not even a specialist batsman at the FC level, it is almost impossible that you will be at the international level. Analyse Karthik's international career a bit more deeply:

in Bangladesh 4 5 0 243 129 56 25 48.60 1 1 0
in India 6 9 0 207 93 46 28 23.00 0 1 0
in South Africa 1 2 1 101 63 38* - 101.00 0 1 0
in Zimbabwe 2 2 0 2 1 1 - 1.00 0 0 0

It is not that impressive. Even Deep Dasgupta has scored a test hundred. A few innings hardly mean any thing.

Karthik has returned as a completely different batsman in his second stint, so why are you bringing his feats from years back into the equation? Let's see what Karthik has done as a test opener:

- promoted as an emergency option against a good attack in difficult conditions, he outperforms all of the specialist batsmen in the team in a pressure situation
- bashed Bangladesh, as any test batsman should
- dismissed by Sidebottom in swing-friendly conditions

So you're telling me that this one dismissal is enough to conclude that he can't open in test cricket? Nope.

 

[adharcric]

He wasn't always a wicket keeper and he is not a natural wicket keeper like Mongia or More.

Doesn't matter if he's a born, natural, manufactured or artificial keeper. He's very good behind the stumps. Don't see how anyone can dispute that.

 

[Sanz]

Doesn't matter if he's a born, natural, manufactured or artificial keeper. He's very good behind the stumps. Don't see how anyone can dispute that.

It does, especially if you are going to keep wickets in India. Also, Right now he is young, extremely fit and his reflexes are quick so it may not matter much, but in a few years time when his reflexes won't be as quick, he will be ordinary. Besides, What's the point of him being so good behind the stumps if he is not keeping the wickets ?

Of may be I should ask this, If he is so good as a wicket keeper, why is he not keeping wickets ? Is he selected as a wicket keeper or as a batsman or both ?