Boxing thread

[JBMAC]

Damn straight.



Yeah, Ali is definitely an interesting case. Though, it's sort of like Boycs in that we don't know how his career might have gone if he hadn't been out of the sport for 3 years or so, IIRC. He definitely fell by the wayside in his later fights, that's for sure. But then again, I think personally I would rank getting through fights on his chin and heart is just as good as winning technically brilliantly. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but his "rope-a-dope" technique that he employed in later fights, which took a tremendous toll on him, it was admirable for the guts it must have taken to go in there with people like Foreman and fighting that way. But yeah I see where you're coming from with the separating the legendary status from the actual reality.

And regarding Marciano, I had suspected as much, but like you said it's a record that is impossible to argue with, like we hear with Cricket so much these days, you can only beat whoever is put in front of you. But yeah, to be honest I'm pretty new to boxing, or at least I have only recently started really getting interested in it and stuff, so my views are that of a total novice so I apologise in advance if I appear to be talking out of my arse.

Edit: And yeah, typical crap from the media, bigging up Gatti and virtually ignoring Gomez pre-fight and then going on about how Gatti was too old and washed up and crap afterwards. Totally taking away from the fact that Gomez put on a clinical display in that fight, dominated through seven rounds.

Also the Kermit Cintron fight before that was pretty explosive and fun to watch, I really like the look of that guy from what I've seen of him. Really strong, and his ability to throw cross-counters almost at will really impressed me.

The discussion re Marciano and Ali is an interesting one.I believe shortly after Ali retired some computer experts in the US put both fighters relevant details into a program including how they won etc etc and the end result was that even though Ali at the end of the 14th was way ahead on points,Marciano had enough left to come out and knock him(Ali) out in the last.Someone who knows their way around computers could look for a reference and maybe post it here.

 

[Majin]

Is this what you're refering to?

 

[JBMAC]

Is this what you're refering to?

That's the one....rather fascinating I thought

 

[UncleTheOne]

wouldn't take too much interest in that espn tbh. it was done as part of a series if i recall correctly and obviously they only have the rights to certain fights so they have to work their list around that.

but seriously, george foreman at number 20? so laughable, almost as overrated as ali is by the casual viewer and uninformed media.

meanwhile the fight of the year will take place in cardiff on november the 3rd as the two undisputed kings of super middleweight get it on, britians finest by a distance joe cazlaghe gets in the ring with the danish viking mikkel kessler.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Mundine is much improved and would give either of them a decent fight IMO. He didn't exactly embarass himself last time against Kessler, and every fight since he's looked far superior. He absolutely murdered Soliman, in what was after all a title fight. Didn't see his most recent defence, though.

I'm looking forward for him to be matched against whoever wins, anyway.

 

[UncleTheOne]

Mundine is much improved and would give either of them a decent fight IMO. He didn't exactly embarass himself last time against Kessler, and every fight since he's looked far superior. He absolutely murdered Soliman, in what was after all a title fight. Didn't see his most recent defence, though.

I'm looking forward for him to be matched against whoever wins, anyway.

mundine would get beaten in much the same way by kessler again and completely outclassed against calzaghe, anyone who gets knocked out by featherfisted sven ottke is going to struggle to make waves against the elite.

the winner of this fight will be looking for much bigger fish to fry, the winner of winky-hopkins being their main target.

 

[Goughy]

The boxing website I use the most as it is deep and comprehensive has Calzaghe the top rated Super-Middleweight in history and Mikkel Kessler is rated 10th.

Anytime you have 2 of the top 10 in history going at it then you know you cant miss it.

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?country=&***=M&division=Super+Middleweight&status=E&SUBMIT=Go

 

[UncleTheOne]

The boxing website I use the most as it is deep and comprehensive has Calzaghe the top rated Super-Middleweight in history and Mikkel Kessler is rated 10th.

Anytime you have 2 of the top 10 in history going at it then you know you cant miss it.

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?country=&***=M&division=Super+Middleweight&status=E&SUBMIT=Go

the super middleweight division is still fairly new so the list is a little bare of top quality fighters, i mean sven ottke? yeah he finished unbeaten but never left germany and got some of the most dreadful decisions i have ever seen, no word of a lie, but robin reid actually got warned once in his fight against ottke for hitting him, then got robbed by the judges.

steve collins at number two is another odd choice, sure he beat benn and eubank, but both were well on the slide then.

although there is no doubt, calzaghe and kessler are top class fighters, there is no one between 160 and 175 that could take either of them.

 

[Goughy]

the super middleweight division is still fairly new so the list is a little bare of top quality fighters, i mean sven ottke? yeah he finished unbeaten but never left germany and got some of the most dreadful decisions i have ever seen, no word of a lie, but robin reid actually got warned once in his fight against ottke for hitting him, then got robbed by the judges.

steve collins at number two is another odd choice, sure he beat benn and eubank, but both were well on the slide then.

although there is no doubt, calzaghe and kessler are top class fighters, there is no one between 160 and 175 that could take either of them.

I pretty much agree with what you say. Super-Middleweight is a relatively new weight.

However, when Collins beat Eubank for the first time it was an upset and Eubank was still riding high.

Another point about Eubank is that he won his wars (well won 1 drew 1) with Benn but could be very ordinary and was himself the beneficiary of some dubious decisions. The fact he went undefeated so long was a lot to do with some generous ring-side interpretations.

One think that you have to love about Eubank was that although he was a talker and flash he had a granite jaw. Cant think of many that prefered him as a fighter over Benn though.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

mundine would get beaten in much the same way by kessler again and completely outclassed against calzaghe, anyone who gets knocked out by featherfisted sven ottke is going to struggle to make waves against the elite.

the winner of this fight will be looking for much bigger fish to fry, the winner of winky-hopkins being their main target.

Mundine is something of a unique case because he entered into boxing so late. If you haven't seen him fight recently you haven't seen what he's capable of, simple as that. He's an infinitely better fighter now than he was a couple of years ago, let alone back around 2000-2002, and it'd be silly to underestimate him.

 

[chalky]

I pretty much agree with what you say. Super-Middleweight is a relatively new weight.

However, when Collins beat Eubank for the first time it was an upset and Eubank was still riding high.

Another point about Eubank is that he won his wars (well won 1 drew 1) with Benn but could be very ordinary and was himself the beneficiary of some dubious decisions. The fact he went undefeated so long was a lot to do with some generous ring-side interpretations.

One think that you have to love about Eubank was that although he was a talker and flash he had a granite jaw. Cant think of many that prefered him as a fighter over Benn though.

Big Eubank fan TBH could have been regarded as a great better fighter if he would have went to America & faught the likes of Michael Nunn, James Toney & Roy Jones. I hink he would have given them all problems as you said he had a granite chin, excellent skills and decent power in his right hand. But after the 2nd Watson fight he lost a his hunger and got lazy inbetwen fights often having to boil down to weight too close to a fight. which I suppose is understandable under the circumstances. Anyway he decided to take on a bum of the month tour around Europe with only Roccogiani being a decent win. I still think he his twice the fighter Collins ever was. Collins for me doesn't get enough stick for having the weakest World title run ever look at his defences a shot Benn twice, Nevile Brown, Cornelius Carr, Craig Cummings etc and bottled it at short notice when Calzaghe became number one contender (knowing he would get his arse kicked) Eubank replaced Collins at 2 weeks notice giving Calzaghe his hardest fight to date.

Eubank would also later step up two weights and have 2 wars with Carl Thompson at Cruiser Weight the first getting fight of the year.

 

[chalky]

The boxing website I use the most as it is deep and comprehensive has Calzaghe the top rated Super-Middleweight in history and Mikkel Kessler is rated 10th.

Anytime you have 2 of the top 10 in history going at it then you know you cant miss it.

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?country=&***=M&division=Super+Middleweight&status=E&SUBMIT=Go

For me Roy Jones has to be the greatest Super Middle of all time he gets that for hammering then P4P no 1 James Toney at that weight with one hand.

 

[chalky]

although there is no doubt, calzaghe and kessler are top class fighters, there is no one between 160 and 175 that could take either of them.

160 - 175 is a bit light in quality ATM I suppose Jermain Taylor would give them a decent fight if he stepped up thenyour looking at a pumped up welterweight in Winky Wright & 40+ Bernard Hopkins.

At 175 Paul Briggs or Chad Dawson would be awesome fights with either Calzaghe or Kessler.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Big fight tonight; Bernard Hopkins v Winky Wright. Interesting the limit is set at 12st 2lbs, slightly over the super-middle limit. Should be the classic match between the front-foot fighter & the defensive counterpuncher.

Think Wright will just have too much for the 42 year old Hopkins, alhtough he's no spring chicken himself to be fair.

 

[UncleTheOne]

Big Eubank fan TBH could have been regarded as a great better fighter if he would have went to America & faught the likes of Michael Nunn, James Toney & Roy Jones. I hink he would have given them all problems as you said he had a granite chin, excellent skills and decent power in his right hand. But after the 2nd Watson fight he lost a his hunger and got lazy inbetwen fights often having to boil down to weight too close to a fight. which I suppose is understandable under the circumstances. Anyway he decided to take on a bum of the month tour around Europe with only Roccogiani being a decent win. I still think he his twice the fighter Collins ever was. Collins for me doesn't get enough stick for having the weakest World title run ever look at his defences a shot Benn twice, Nevile Brown, Cornelius Carr, Craig Cummings etc and bottled it at short notice when Calzaghe became number one contender (knowing he would get his arse kicked) Eubank replaced Collins at 2 weeks notice giving Calzaghe his hardest fight to date.

Eubank would also later step up two weights and have 2 wars with Carl Thompson at Cruiser Weight the first getting fight of the year.

brilliant post. the watson fight killed something inside eubank, the same happend with benn after what happend in his fight with the g man.

 

[UncleTheOne]

160 - 175 is a bit light in quality ATM I suppose Jermain Taylor would give them a decent fight if he stepped up thenyour looking at a pumped up welterweight in Winky Wright & 40+ Bernard Hopkins.

At 175 Paul Briggs or Chad Dawson would be awesome fights with either Calzaghe or Kessler.

jermaine taylor is nothing but a hbo backed fraud who has got some highly dubious decsions, the result against winky wright was an absolute farce, kelly pavlik is gonna blast taylor out when they meet in thumping style.

 

[UncleTheOne]

Big fight tonight; Bernard Hopkins v Winky Wright. Interesting the limit is set at 12st 2lbs, slightly over the super-middle limit. Should be the classic match between the front-foot fighter & the defensive counterpuncher.

Think Wright will just have too much for the 42 year old Hopkins, alhtough he's no spring chicken himself to be fair.

hopkins was always going to be a stylistic nightmare for winky. hopkins is a master against southpaws, and whilst winky is brilliant at getting his jab off against stationary targets, hopkins was too fluid in movement for him, and far too crafty.

winky often reminds me of a bad comedian, brilliant set up, no punch line.

 

[Johnners]

Big fight tonight; Bernard Hopkins v Winky Wright. Interesting the limit is set at 12st 2lbs, slightly over the super-middle limit. Should be the classic match between the front-foot fighter & the defensive counterpuncher.

Think Wright will just have too much for the 42 year old Hopkins, alhtough he's no spring chicken himself to be fair.

The Katsidis vs Amonsot fight beforehand was better in my biased opinion, and apparently i wasn't the only one thinking along those lines, as iirc the American commentators on foxtel said much the same thing...

 

[chalky]

jermaine taylor is nothing but a hbo backed fraud who has got some highly dubious decsions, the result against winky wright was an absolute farce, kelly pavlik is gonna blast taylor out when they meet in thumping style.

Pavlik's win against Miranda was impressive but Taylor is a different ball game, I thought the Winky fight was close not a robbery by any stretch and afterall he did beat Bhop twice (again close fights but he was more than competative in both). Fancy Taylor to win on points quite comfortably against Pavlik 8 rounds to 4.

 

[UncleTheOne]

Pavlik's win against Miranda was impressive but Taylor is a different ball game, I thought the Winky fight was close not a robbery by any stretch and afterall he did beat Bhop twice (again close fights but he was more than competative in both). Fancy Taylor to win on points quite comfortably against Pavlik 8 rounds to 4.

my worry if i were a taylor fan would be that he was rocked by bernard hopkins, a guy who has pretty much lost all his old punching power, and since then has been matched up against light hitting winky, and blown up welters ouma and spinks, it would seem the taylor team may be worried about that beard of his, and if pavlik connects then it may be goodnight jermaine.

i'm on a roll at the moment with chin checks after amir khan was proven to have a glass chin v the featherfisted willie limond.