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***Official** West Indies in England***
- Thread starter GIMH
- Start date
Tom Halsey
International Coach
He only got one lucky wicket in the first innings, the rest were all very good deliveries.
In the second, he had helpful conditions but you still have to get the wickets, and while the appealing was excessive, he was a constant thorn, and no batsman looked truly comfortable against him.
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
Very hard to take ten wickets and not have bowled 'nicely'. Agree with you on the speed and length (too fast and too short too often) but credit where credit is due. 10 wickets is still a good achievement and I don't think it can happen unless you at least bowl nicely.
Isn't it about time we bit the bullet and dropped Monty? He offers nothing to the team in any area, and frankly Ian Blackwell could do a better job. Quite how he averages under 30 in test cricket is a mystery when any fule knows that a left arm finger spinner can't realistically hope to average under 38 in test cricket these days in accordance with the standard set by Ashley Giles.
Piper
International Captain
I think England played well, a lot better than they did over the winter. I think their bowling has improved a lot. I think Plunkett is the weaker bowler. I'm really pleased to see Harmy bowling better. I think the batting has been the thing that has been the best for England and again they all performed. Monty was awesome! Some of the balls he bowled, the worlds best would have had trouble playing. And Cook showed how good he is. The first Englishman to get 6 Test match hundreds before the age of 23, and only the 9th player in history to do so.
The Windies played really well. I just hope that this marks the start of their come back into the high standards of the 70's and 80's.
The Windies played really well. I just hope that this marks the start of their come back into the high standards of the 70's and 80's.
Piper
International Captain
Obviously not watching the same match as you then. He took 10 wickets in a match, how is that offering nothing to the team?
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
I think you'll find that Greg was being facetious in response to Scaly's ongoing failure to say anything positive about Panesar. If nothing else, the suggestion that Blackwell should replace him gave the game away.
At least, I hope he was
UncleTheOne
U19 Captain
blackwell ahead of durhams finest gareth breese? who i believe holds a british passport.
To be fair i'm being ridiculously harsh. Scaly Piscine has moved a long way in the above post. No longer is Liam Plunkett held out to be somebody who should be picked ahead of our second best left arm spinner. He's had to settle for arguing that he's better than James Anderson, and not just any James Anderson but the James Anderson who is currently bowling so well in county cricket.I think you'll find that Greg was being facetious in response to Scaly's ongoing failure to say anything positive about Panesar. If nothing else, the suggestion that Blackwell should replace him gave the game away.
At least, I hope he was
Manee
Cricketer Of The Year
I think that cricket in general is horribly misdirected in what bowlers are meant to do in the team. This in particular has had problems with England and West Indies bowlers in this series.
Taylor and Plunkett both fit into the RF/RFM category and the coach needs to ask the player what he wants to do with the ball, does he want to bowl quick or bowl accurately or pitch it up and look for swing. The result of both is that the players are horribly inconsistant and bowl at 80-85mph (reasonable pace, but not rapid) with poor accuracy since they do not know what length they want to bowl. This aimlessness affected Harmison and the onus should be mainly on the coach and the player to ask these tough questions to the player about whether they should drop 5 mph for accuracy and swing. Harmison has sided with a sort of compromise based on trying to bowl fast and sorting himself (with the help of Donald) technically to help accuracy...
...but do you want an 85mph bowler, bowling sorta accurately but unable to bowl long spells because he is still trying to bowl fast, I would not want that as the spearhead of an attack.
Slightly off topic but this affects Monty too, especially in ODIs where he does not know whether he needs to get wickets or runs.
A perfect example of the effect of someone who knows his role and shows an impact with it is Fidel Edwards, he attacked the batsman (still holding back in pace, but can't expect perfection of my theory) and as a consequence cause Strauss, Vaughan and Collingwood in the first innings to fall to other bowlers whilst being put on the back foot (by Fidel) and staying there until too late to a full delivery (if that last sentance made sense). His no nonsence, pace and agression attitude also helped dismiss Plunkett and Harmison in the first innings too. He is a great first innings bowler to attack the batsman on a pitch not with much to aid the bowlers in terms of movement.
In contrast, Darren Sammy is a line and length bowler and did not do much in the first innings. However, he too knows his role as a line and length bowler and does not try and bowl too fast. In a first innings, his line and length rewarded him with a good economy of 1.88 in 17 overs and in the second innings when the pitch did a bit more he picked up 7 wickets with the use of seam movement.
Obviously, England's batting and the winning of a toss which turned out crucial gave England the win but West Indies have the better directed bowlers and Harmison, Monty and Plunkett need to take the example of Sammy and Edwards in deciding what their role in the team is with the help of the coaching staff and this will also help a more effective bowling selection and within the match, bowling changes.
Taylor and Plunkett both fit into the RF/RFM category and the coach needs to ask the player what he wants to do with the ball, does he want to bowl quick or bowl accurately or pitch it up and look for swing. The result of both is that the players are horribly inconsistant and bowl at 80-85mph (reasonable pace, but not rapid) with poor accuracy since they do not know what length they want to bowl. This aimlessness affected Harmison and the onus should be mainly on the coach and the player to ask these tough questions to the player about whether they should drop 5 mph for accuracy and swing. Harmison has sided with a sort of compromise based on trying to bowl fast and sorting himself (with the help of Donald) technically to help accuracy...
...but do you want an 85mph bowler, bowling sorta accurately but unable to bowl long spells because he is still trying to bowl fast, I would not want that as the spearhead of an attack.
Slightly off topic but this affects Monty too, especially in ODIs where he does not know whether he needs to get wickets or runs.
A perfect example of the effect of someone who knows his role and shows an impact with it is Fidel Edwards, he attacked the batsman (still holding back in pace, but can't expect perfection of my theory) and as a consequence cause Strauss, Vaughan and Collingwood in the first innings to fall to other bowlers whilst being put on the back foot (by Fidel) and staying there until too late to a full delivery (if that last sentance made sense). His no nonsence, pace and agression attitude also helped dismiss Plunkett and Harmison in the first innings too. He is a great first innings bowler to attack the batsman on a pitch not with much to aid the bowlers in terms of movement.
In contrast, Darren Sammy is a line and length bowler and did not do much in the first innings. However, he too knows his role as a line and length bowler and does not try and bowl too fast. In a first innings, his line and length rewarded him with a good economy of 1.88 in 17 overs and in the second innings when the pitch did a bit more he picked up 7 wickets with the use of seam movement.
Obviously, England's batting and the winning of a toss which turned out crucial gave England the win but West Indies have the better directed bowlers and Harmison, Monty and Plunkett need to take the example of Sammy and Edwards in deciding what their role in the team is with the help of the coaching staff and this will also help a more effective bowling selection and within the match, bowling changes.
Goughy
Hall of Fame Member
but Sidebottom did look very ineffective. Yesterday he had decent accuracy and today he may have swung the ball a little but he lacks penetration. He bowled pretty much as well as he could on that track and ended up with nothing. Thats a huge worry. He doesnt have any edge about his bowling unless there are massively favourable conditions.
Accurate medium pace bowlers dont often win you Test matches and Sidebottom isnt going to make match winning contributions unless gifted favourable conditions.
He did his job at Headingley and now let him go back to roam the County pastures.
As for Panesar, he got there in the end and a 10fer is no mean achievement but his bowling was nothing better than ok. The game could have been over on Sunday if he had bowled well (ie consistent length)
Good to see Plunkett gone.
Fiery
Banned
Apologies. Bad oversight
TheEpic
School Boy/Girl Captain
I'm not a regular poster and perhaps have a tendency to overstate my case, but I do think you're doing Sidebottom an injustice here. He seemed to be bowling at a consistently decent pace, certainly hovering up to the mid 80mph mark, always around the same pace as Plunkett and Harmison at times, and I think its absolute nonsense to suggest he didn't look threatening. The wickets he got in the first innings were mainly due to him hurrying the batsman with shorter balls, rather than his traditional swinging deliverties.but Sidebottom did look very ineffective. Yesterday he had decent accuracy and today he may have swung the ball a little but he lacks penetration. He bowled pretty much as well as he could on that track and ended up with nothing. Thats a huge worry. He doesnt have any edge about his bowling unless there are massively favourable conditions.
Accurate medium pace bowlers dont often win you Test matches and Sidebottom isnt going to make match winning contributions unless gifted favourable conditions.
He did his job at Headingley and now let him go back to roam the County pastures.
As for Panesar, he got there in the end and a 10fer is no mean achievement but his bowling was nothing better than ok. The game could have been over on Sunday if he had bowled well (ie consistent length)
Good to see Plunkett gone.
I honestly feel that he was desperately unlucky not to get a wicket in that second innings as well. I recall a spell yesterday where he was seemingly jagging the ball both ways off the seam, and one ball feathered the off stump of the otherwise unnerved Chanderpaul. For such an unthreatening bowler, he passed the edge of the bat A LOT, and was the only bowler I saw on show who troubled Chanderpaul consistently. Botham on commentary was also highly complimentary of his efforts.
However, I do not think that Sidebottom is going to be a long term option for the Test side. Ultimately, he may lack that yard of pace or variety to offer something in all conditions, but I see no reason for him to return to county cricket at this stage, having probably been the best bowler in this series so far. A return to the erratic Plunkett and possibly Anderson would be disastrous at this point, and he at least seems a credible fill in whilst our precocious young talents are developing in County cricket.
Manee
Cricketer Of The Year
I agree. Sidebottom probed at a good line and length at a good pace with the third dimension being left handedness. He could not use this third dimension too well against Chanderpaul which is why he looked slightly inneffictive. I don't think you can falter him, he just did not have the edge and the agression was lost by day 4 and 5 as he fatigued.
Woodster
International Captain
Now I'm not Sidebottoms biggest fan, but I do think this is a touch harsh. When considering this was the only innings where he has taken less than 3 wickets, albeit in favourable conditions.
He offers England variety, he bowls at decent pace (he does appear to have found an extra yard of it), is accurate and swings the ball. When the ball doesn't swing he still puts it in the right areas, thus creating a certain degree of pressure. IMO he deserves his place in the side up at Chester-le-Street.
FBU
International Debutant
Most wickets so far in 2007 -
Ntini 4 Tests - 20 wickets at 24.55
Asif 3 Tests - 19 wickets at 18.47
Panesar 4 Tests - 19 wickets at 23.15 (Career average now 29.93)
Kaneria 3 Tests - 15 wickets at 26.33
Harmison 4 Tests - 14 wickets at 33.64
Pollock 3 Tests - 13 wickets at 22.00
Khan 3 Tests - 13 wickets at 23.92
Sidebottom 2 Tests - 11 wickets at 17.00
Harris - 4 Tests - 11 wickets at 28.54
Kallis 4 Tests - 11 wickets at 28.81
Steyn - 2 Tests - 10 wickets at 17.50
Ntini 4 Tests - 20 wickets at 24.55
Asif 3 Tests - 19 wickets at 18.47
Panesar 4 Tests - 19 wickets at 23.15 (Career average now 29.93)
Kaneria 3 Tests - 15 wickets at 26.33
Harmison 4 Tests - 14 wickets at 33.64
Pollock 3 Tests - 13 wickets at 22.00
Khan 3 Tests - 13 wickets at 23.92
Sidebottom 2 Tests - 11 wickets at 17.00
Harris - 4 Tests - 11 wickets at 28.54
Kallis 4 Tests - 11 wickets at 28.81
Steyn - 2 Tests - 10 wickets at 17.50
simmy
International Regular
There was a 5 over period this afternoon where Panesar bowled every ball on the spot.
He occasionally drops the odd one shorts, esp in his first over I have noticed but on the whole, he was causing trouble for two days, and was unlucky to have Shiv batting out of his skin and a lot of half decisions etc not go his way.
That being said, he has a lot of improvements to make, ie. bowling with more flight and dip.
He is young and will be around for donkeys years imo. He deserved the MOM for being on the winning side, but Shiv was impossibly good throughout.
He occasionally drops the odd one shorts, esp in his first over I have noticed but on the whole, he was causing trouble for two days, and was unlucky to have Shiv batting out of his skin and a lot of half decisions etc not go his way.
That being said, he has a lot of improvements to make, ie. bowling with more flight and dip.
He is young and will be around for donkeys years imo. He deserved the MOM for being on the winning side, but Shiv was impossibly good throughout.