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Garry Sobers-A master of black magic?

thierry henry

International Coach
Likewise, you say McGrath had the help of other fine bowlers and use that as a point to detract from his efforts, yet blatantly ignore in your musings that Marshall was part of what's regarded as the best pace attack of all time. Consistency? I'd say that Marshall's support cast of Holding Garner & Walsh/ Clarke, etc
??

Surely Marshall's prime as a bowler did not coincide with some of these other players

When I think of THE "great West Indies bowling attack of the 70s/80s" I don't even think of Marshall- I regard him as a later player who bridged the gap into the Walsh/Ambrose era (another great era of course, but not quite the same as the days of the four-prong)...
 

thierry henry

International Coach
I also think JJB is fair enough to make his point strongly, simply because he faces such overwhelming opposition. I've had a tendency to exaggerate as well when arguing an unpopular point. Overall I think he has actually created a very valid discussion here.
 

Burgey

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??

Surely Marshall's prime as a bowler did not coincide with some of these other players

When I think of THE "great West Indies bowling attack of the 70s/80s" I don't even think of Marshall- I regard him as a later player who bridged the gap into the Walsh/Ambrose era (another great era of course, but not quite the same as the days of the four-prong)...
I also think JJB is fair enough to make his point strongly, simply because he faces such overwhelming opposition. I've had a tendency to exaggerate as well when arguing an unpopular point. Overall I think he has actually created a very valid discussion here.
Sure, I've got no probs with the point being raised, nor do I have a problem with anyone suggesting Imran's a great player. But I think it goes too far when you just denigrate a good player with a throw away line like "green top bully" or "flat track bully". But I take your oint re. exaggerationg things I do it a whole heap myself. :)
 

thierry henry

International Coach
The counter-point to that is that, imo, when someone says for example "Lillee/Richards/Sobers (my 3 favourite sacred cow players to criticise:ph34r: ) were clearly the best bowler/batsman/all-rounder of all time/their era", they are implicitly making an equally shallow criticism of other fine players. I think it's only right in the interests of balance that they cop a bit of it themselves :laugh:
 

Burgey

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The counter-point to that is that, imo, when someone says for example "Lillee/Richards/Sobers (my 3 favourite sacred cow players to criticise:ph34r: ) were clearly the best bowler/batsman/all-rounder of all time/their era", they are implicitly making an equally shallow criticism of other fine players. I think it's only right in the interests of balance that they cop a bit of it themselves :laugh:
Yeah that's right. It's a good distinction you make there. It's like this argument that's been going around here re whether Ponting is the greatest Australian batsman since Bradman - you get some people saying "definitely" and others saying "definitely not", when I would say "He belongs in the argument with some other really good players".

Then again, I'm probably just procrastinating as I get older. :)
 

Flem274*

123/5
The counter-point to that is that, imo, when someone says for example "Lillee/Richards/Sobers (my 3 favourite sacred cow players to criticise:ph34r: ) were clearly the best bowler/batsman/all-rounder of all time/their era", they are implicitly making an equally shallow criticism of other fine players. I think it's only right in the interests of balance that they cop a bit of it themselves :laugh:
:laugh: Good on you, you're right too. There's so many players you could pick in the 80's. Damn good era for cricket.
 
Saw a lot of Lillee bowl, did you? Plainly not. In Australia at the time he went around, the WACA was fast, the Gabba was green, Adelaide was a road, Sydney spun and Melbourne was so low and slow that he bowled off three steps in a test there in the late 70s/ early 80s because there was zero bounce and pace in it. Still got wickets too.

Most of us have been through this a thousand times, but here goes.

He played 4 tests on the subcontinent and performed poorly. Hadlee, whom you cite as another example, played a small number as well, and performed well. Imran played 13 in Australia and averaged a respectable but hardly outstanding 28, presumably on the "green tops" you assert Lillee revelled in. So, was Imran nothing more than a respectable bowler here? I'd say not, because he's a fine player, rated very highly by people who saw him play, played against him and officiated him. Just as Lillee is rated very highly by those who had the misfortune to play against him, those who watched him or officiated him. See, they were both excpetional bowlers.

Imran had one golden tour with the ball here, averaging 19.00 in the three test series in 81/82. That was against a pretty good Australian line up. Aside from that he averaged 28, 40 & 41 with the ball in his other 3 bowling tours (in 83/84 he didn't bowl). If we accept your logic that Lillee was a green top bully who performed well at home on fast pitches, where was Imran on those other tours? Who knows? He may have been injured, he may have been at a stage in his career where he was not bowling well, he may have been just plain unlucky. I'm not prepared to undersell him as a bowler though, just because he didn't do as well here on those tours. Yet on a representative sample far smaller for Lillee on the subcontinent, you're prepared to pigeon-hole him someone not fit to carry Imran's jock strap.

Now I know it might burn your cheese, but their careers overlapped to some extent, and many more players who played vs both rated Lillee higher than they rated Imran. Whether that's justified in the stats, with the wisdom of hindsight or whether the stats undersell one over the other, who knows?

But to simply denigrate Lillee as a green top bully is facile. Especailly when guys like Richards, Lloyd, Boycott, Chappell, Dickie Bird - guys who've watched 100s if not 1000s of fast bowlers ply their trade over a span of decades - rate him as among the greatest ever, if not the greatest. Or that when things got tough for him in the middle of a spell, Hadlee would say to himself "What would Lillee do here, to get someone out?" It doesn't follow that these people are right, but in the face of such consistent opinion, to rate Lillee as a green top bully is just meh.

Likewise, you say McGrath had the help of other fine bowlers and use that as a point to detract from his efforts, yet blatantly ignore in your musings that Marshall was part of what's regarded as the best pace attack of all time. Consistency? I'd say that Marshall's support cast of Holding Garner & Walsh/ Clarke, etc was every bit as good as a support cast of Warne, Gillespie & say, Kaspa or Lee or Fleming (though perhaps not as versatile, I grant you). Both were certainly better than Lillee's support casts, which is often overlooked because of the great partnership he formed with Thommo, but which only lasted two or three years at the most. Thommo aside, Lillee bowled with Walker, Pascoe, Lawson (later years) and the mighty spin of Skull, TJ or Ashley Mallett. Hardly inspirational stuff there.

Look, they are both great players, and who is best is open to opinion. But when you take a pot shot at a bloke like Lillee, you really need something to back it up.
Ok,I apologise for hurting your & some of the other guys' feelings.And,I understand that Lillee is rated very highly but I just cant rate a pacer as good as Hadlee,Marshall,Imran,McGrath etc who didn't succeed in subcontinent for whatever reason.I'll put him in the third tier of Walsh,Pollock etc type of bowlers.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Ok,I apologise for hurting your & some of the other guys' feelings.And,I understand that Lillee is rated very highly but I just cant rate a pacer as good as Hadlee,Marshall,Imran,McGrath etc who didn't succeed in subcontinent for whatever reason.I'll put him in the third tier of Walsh,Pollock etc type of bowlers.
Well you would hope Imran would do well on the sub continent, considering thats where he came from!!!
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Sorry, I find the best I can say about Sober's bowling is that it was average - and that was his peak.

As for Imran, he averaged 19 for 51/88 tests, that's what I meant.

You said Imran wasn't good outside that time, now you're saying he was? Nevermind.
I said that the times when he wasn't a good bowler (17 out of 88 Tests) don't matter much. That's all.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
??

Surely Marshall's prime as a bowler did not coincide with some of these other players

When I think of THE "great West Indies bowling attack of the 70s/80s" I don't even think of Marshall- I regard him as a later player who bridged the gap into the Walsh/Ambrose era (another great era of course, but not quite the same as the days of the four-prong)...
TBH, Marshall played a part in the eras of both Holding-Garner and Bishop-Ambrose-Walsh. And there wasn't really a gap between - Walsh came into the side to replace Roberts in 1984, and Ambrose and Bishop within a year of the loss of Holding and Garner (and those who played a bit in that time - Tony Gray to the forefront - were hardly amateurs).

In fact, it'd be more accurate to say that Marshall's initial time was when it was 4-from-5 of Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft and himself (with Marshall fifth-choice and only picked when others were injured until Croft dropped-out of the picture) and not long after Marshall became a first-choice, Roberts retired.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Saw a lot of Lillee bowl, did you? Plainly not. In Australia at the time he went around, the WACA was fast, the Gabba was green, Adelaide was a road, Sydney spun and Melbourne was so low and slow that he bowled off three steps in a test there in the late 70s/ early 80s because there was zero bounce and pace in it. Still got wickets too.

Most of us have been through this a thousand times, but here goes.

He played 4 tests on the subcontinent and performed poorly. Hadlee, whom you cite as another example, played a small number as well, and performed well. Imran played 13 in Australia and averaged a respectable but hardly outstanding 28, presumably on the "green tops" you assert Lillee revelled in. So, was Imran nothing more than a respectable bowler here? I'd say not, because he's a fine player, rated very highly by people who saw him play, played against him and officiated him. Just as Lillee is rated very highly by those who had the misfortune to play against him, those who watched him or officiated him. See, they were both excpetional bowlers.

Imran had one golden tour with the ball here, averaging 19.00 in the three test series in 81/82. That was against a pretty good Australian line up. Aside from that he averaged 28, 40 & 41 with the ball in his other 3 bowling tours (in 83/84 he didn't bowl). If we accept your logic that Lillee was a green top bully who performed well at home on fast pitches, where was Imran on those other tours? Who knows? He may have been injured, he may have been at a stage in his career where he was not bowling well, he may have been just plain unlucky. I'm not prepared to undersell him as a bowler though, just because he didn't do as well here on those tours. Yet on a representative sample far smaller for Lillee on the subcontinent, you're prepared to pigeon-hole him someone not fit to carry Imran's jock strap.

Now I know it might burn your cheese, but their careers overlapped to some extent, and many more players who played vs both rated Lillee higher than they rated Imran. Whether that's justified in the stats, with the wisdom of hindsight or whether the stats undersell one over the other, who knows?

But to simply denigrate Lillee as a green top bully is facile. Especailly when guys like Richards, Lloyd, Boycott, Chappell, Dickie Bird - guys who've watched 100s if not 1000s of fast bowlers ply their trade over a span of decades - rate him as among the greatest ever, if not the greatest. Or that when things got tough for him in the middle of a spell, Hadlee would say to himself "What would Lillee do here, to get someone out?" It doesn't follow that these people are right, but in the face of such consistent opinion, to rate Lillee as a green top bully is just meh.

Likewise, you say McGrath had the help of other fine bowlers and use that as a point to detract from his efforts, yet blatantly ignore in your musings that Marshall was part of what's regarded as the best pace attack of all time. Consistency? I'd say that Marshall's support cast of Holding Garner & Walsh/ Clarke, etc was every bit as good as a support cast of Warne, Gillespie & say, Kaspa or Lee or Fleming (though perhaps not as versatile, I grant you). Both were certainly better than Lillee's support casts, which is often overlooked because of the great partnership he formed with Thommo, but which only lasted two or three years at the most. Thommo aside, Lillee bowled with Walker, Pascoe, Lawson (later years) and the mighty spin of Skull, TJ or Ashley Mallett. Hardly inspirational stuff there.

Look, they are both great players, and who is best is open to opinion. But when you take a pot shot at a bloke like Lillee, you really need something to back it up.
Cripes, I've got another serious Saj contender here.

To pick-up on the Imran-in-Australia point, though - his case is rather similar to Waqar Younis' one. Some unwary Australians, in fact, I know for a fact, underrate Waqar because "he didn't do well over here" (that's not aimed at you, just to add) in the same way some unwary subcontinentals over-do the talking down of Lillee (for me he's in the first tier down, not the third with the Flemings and Gillespies) because of his lack of success in the subcontinent.

Imran's record in Australia, during the time he was a good bowler (which he no longer was by 1989\90, against any opponents) IS impressive - 8 games, average of 27.21, with 2 good series and 1 bad one (of a whole 2 Tests).
 

thierry henry

International Coach
TBH, Marshall played a part in the eras of both Holding-Garner and Bishop-Ambrose-Walsh. And there wasn't really a gap between - Walsh came into the side to replace Roberts in 1984, and Ambrose and Bishop within a year of the loss of Holding and Garner (and those who played a bit in that time - Tony Gray to the forefront - were hardly amateurs).

In fact, it'd be more accurate to say that Marshall's initial time was when it was 4-from-5 of Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft and himself (with Marshall fifth-choice and only picked when others were injured until Croft dropped-out of the picture) and not long after Marshall became a first-choice, Roberts retired.
I know there was never actually a gap in between, but I still think there were two definite eras (at least in my mind, with it's tendency to artificially order and arrange things:ph34r: ). I suppose it's because I grew up in the Walsh/Ambrose era, and see them as having been at their prime through approximately the mid-90s.

When I think of the "great West Indies bowling attack/four prong" I think of the late 70s, early 80s in particular.

For mine, of the really great West Indian bowlers, Marshall was a bit younger/started a bit later than one group, and a bit older/started a bit earlier than the other, hence why I perceive him as bridging a rather imaginary gap. If you follow.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I do. FTR, I "order" it pretty similarly. Unfortunately, there was never any extended period where the attack went without change - injuries and Kerry Packer saw to that.

The original foursome of the late 1970s was, of course, Roberts-Holding-Garner-Croft. And as I say - that sort of remained first-choice for a while, with Marshall first-reserve, but injuries were common. Then Croft and Roberts were gone.

Marshall was the best and longest-serving of them all IMO. And the shortest-lived. :(:(:(
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
Well you would hope Imran would do well on the sub continent, considering thats where he came from!!!
So since thats where he comes from he can make tufts of grass pop out of the track or increase the bounce of the traditionally flat tracks at will right? :blink:
 

Burgey

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So since thats where he comes from he can make tufts of grass pop out of the track or increase the bounce of the traditionally flat tracks at will right? :blink:
No, but one might expect that if you grow up playing in a certain set of conditions you would come to know how to play well under them, which is what home ground advantage is really all about, isn't it?
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I am just wondering about one point here.


The main contention of guys like Kazo here is that Sobers averaged 27 with the ball at his peak and that it is not good enough. Warney averages around 25 while Murali averages around 22 or 21. The difference there is greater than between Sobers at his peak and Warney's normal stats. Given the fact that almost everyone of that era have mentioned that pitches were easier for batting back then than in the late 70s and the whole 80s and also given that Sobers usually bowled fast on turners and spin on seaming wickets to give his side balance, I think 27 is a very very good bowling average for even a specialist bowler in that era. Dunno why everyone is acting as though it is a bad average for a strike bowler.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
Sobers usually bowled fast on turners and spin on seaming wickets to give his side balance
!?!?!

Whether this is true or not, it's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

How on earth is a team's balance helped by having a bowler who always chooses to bowl the most ineffective style for the conditions??

My mind is seriously boggled by this claim.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
My main point of contention, btw, is that over the last 53 tests of his career (we're talking 53 in a row, not just the good ones) Imran averaged 53 with the bat and 19 with the ball.

I've just been having a ball on statsguru (as one does when one has no life) and I can guarantee you that it's not possible to do anything similar with Sobers.

Imran, for approx the final 60% of his career, was overall a freakishly good bowler and a BATSMAN WHO AVERAGED 53 OVER A 53 TEST PERIOD.

Sobers batting from 365* onwards was always outstanding, but he never came close to achieving the equivalent with the ball, at any time, of what Imran did with the bat over those last 53 tests/10 or so years.

When talking "top all-rounders" I firmly believe that Imran is clearly the only player who can say that for a truly sustained period of time he was able to, assessing that time as a whole, safely be able to say that he was OUTSTANDING in both batting and bowling.

Whilst not a definitive argument, I certainly think it's a very strong one and places him at least in a position where it can be argued that Imran is #1.
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
No, but one might expect that if you grow up playing in a certain set of conditions you would come to know how to play well under them, which is what home ground advantage is really all about, isn't it?
Doesn't make it any easier to play in those conditions though. I mean, one might be more mentally prepared and know what to expect, but the pitch will remain as flat as ever. On the same token, I wouldn't knock a New Zealand batsman for having a relatively lower average at home than away.
 

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