Umm an Inexperienced Coach, building around a player who has failed to raise his game in Playoffs.
And how many tiltles Kareem had won before Magic Came to Lakers or Oscar came to Bucks ?
John Sally
Common Now, Please be reasonable when you are going to name players. Yes Thomas had all those player, but the teams were built around Thomas, He was leader of the team, he was known to raise his game when it was really needed unlike someone like Dirk.Mavs build around Nash would be something like the SUNS and not like the Warriors. Detroit didn't win only because of Wallaces, it also won because of Billups (the guy who was the MVP of the Finals) and Hamilton.
Yes, I agree they failed to win a title but year after year they took their teams to playoffs and lost to better team. MAVs of this/last year didn't lose to a better team (Warriors/Heat). In the Nash-Dirk-Finley era they lost to better/equal teams ( lakers/Spurs/Kings), that's why I continue to say that Cuban wanted the success sooner and hence broke the team. He didn't realize that the Kings/Spurs/Lakers were actually a better, physical team than Dallas and hence they lost. If Nash was in Dallas, they would be a much better team than they are now without him, all IMO ofcourse.
Avery is a fine coach. If you're gonna criticise Avery, you might as well criticise Mike D'Antoni, Flip Saunders or anyone not named Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, Larry Brown or Pat Riley. Furthermore, Dallas would've been crazy not to build around Nowitzki. Whatever you think of him, he's an MVP and on his third consecutive all-NBA team.
He was in his second year when he won the title with Oscar, along with the 1971 MVP award and 1971 Finals MVP award. He struggled at first in LA, but so too would Magic if Chicago had won the coin toss to draft him.
John Sally was a key reserve in the Detroit frontcourt. Detroit's frontcourt had as much to do with them winning titles as Thomas and Dumars or Dantley and Aguirre. Without that frontcourt Thomas would've never won a title. Jordan is probably the only guard who's ever won a title without a decent front court & even in his case they knew how to play the triangle and had strong rebounding forwards like Grant and Rodman.John Sally
Where are they gonna get that sort of athleticism from? They don't have players like Stoudemire, Marion or Barbosa. One of their biggest problems is that they're too slow.
They won because they had the Wallaces & Prince, I should add. That was, and is, a quality front court. Take them away and Detroit are your average, crappy Eastern Conference guard based team. Building around a guard or small forward is stupid, whether it's Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, whoever.
Seattle always choked. They lost in the first round two years in a row, first to Denver and then the Lakers. Utah did its share of choking too. The same with Barkley's Suns... Ewing's Knicks choked year after year, infamously. Dallas are the latest in a long line.
Dallas had a first round exit in 2004 when they had Don Nelson and Steve Nash. They've had two excellent regular seasons under Avery Johnson with Dirk as the team leader. Hell, they've had a great run ever since they traded for Dirk. If they're ever gonna win a title it'll be with Dirk. They don't need Nash, IMO. They need a catch and shoot center.
Avery is a fine coach, but still a novice and Nellie kinda showed that in the series. Nellie was playing in his mind. And 3 consecutive all-NBA, MVP etc doesn't mean anything when you lose in the first round. I think he is a fantastic player but not as good as he is made out to be, even at his top, I can think of atleast 10 players that are better than him in the NBA and If I pick my team he wont even be in my team.
The point is Kareem didn't win a single title without Magic or Oscar and Lakers were built around Magic (not around Kareem), so were the bucks. After his retirement Bucks didn't even make playoff with Kareem in the team. Anyways, I am not discussing that Magic/Oscar won titles on their own but just that their teams were built around them.
And how does that prove that Pistons weren't built around Isiah ? Yeah there were other players that were important and Pistons probably wouldn't have succeeded without them but Isiah was their best player
Drafts/Trades/Free Agency ?
All I can say is Ben Wallace is gone from Detroit and guess what Detroit doesn't miss him. Pistons aren't built around Wallaces or Prince, it is built around Billups/Hamilton.
You are right about Sonics choking to Nuggets/Lakers in the playoffs but I dont think Jazz/Suns choked, they just lost to better teams.
Dallas lost to Sacramento who were championship contenders between 1999-2004. The year Dallas lost to Sacramento in the first round, they weren't better than the Kings. Between 2000-2004 I would put Lakers(1), Spurs(2), Kings(3), Mavs(4) and Twolves(5) as the top 5 teams of Western Conf and despite that they made Conf. finals once losing to the very good San Antonio team.
Why doesn't every team go the draft/trade/free agency route and acquire players like Nash, Stoudemire, Marion or Barbosa? Because it's not that easy to rebuild your WHOLE team. Cuban decided to build around Dirk, as his complimentary support wasn't going to require reshaping the whole roster, like it would've had Nash been kept. The decision was a smart one. Dallas went nowhere with both Nash and Nowitzki on the team (with Don coaching). Dallas went to the Finals without Nash. This is not a knock on Nash, as we all know what a phenomenal player he is. I'm just stating that Nash wasn't a good fit in Dallas.
And you're saying that leader would've been Nash? Again, how did Dallas do with Nash on their roster? In Dallas, Nash tired as the Mavs got deeper into the playoffs. He just wasn't the clutch player he's become in Phoenix (because the system and players there let him take full advantage of his skills). Leadership skills mean squat if you don't have the right team and system.
Dallas went Nowhere with Nash/Dirk ? 2 Conf. Semis and one Conf. Finals in 1999-2004 is going nowhere ? And where are they now , Same place where they were in 2004, only difference they lost to a much inferior team.
I think Dallas did pretty well with Nash, better than they are doing without him, in a much weaker western conference now. If leadership means squat then why did you blame Dirk's leadership skills in your post morterm report after their Playoff loss to Warriors ? Steve Nash wasn't the leader of the Mavs, at best he was the co-leader along with Dirk/Finley, In Phoenix, he is the leader and he shows it on/off the field.
With Nash, Dallas went as far as they could go in that highly talented Western Conference. It was not because Nash wasn't a good fit in Dallas, so they(Mavs) didn't advance any furthur but because they weren't better than any of the other 3 teams (Kings, Lakers, Spurs) to whom they lost each time. Even as Coaches, Nellie was at par with Alderman, but not better than Phil,Popovich.
I don't define success as making it to the Conf Semi's or Conf Finals and then losing. Dallas never went further than that with Nash on the team. Without him, they improved their record and went to the Finals. I don't see how you can argue that they didn't improve without Nash. Of course we all know they didn't improve enough to win it all. That's why I've said that Dirk alone won't win us a championship. But that other piece of puzzle isn't Nash. Even with Nash, Dallas would've lost to the Warriors this year. Dirk needs an inside presence in the mold of Duncan or Stoudamire.
You've argued before how the Western Conference is supposedly weak as compared to before. I simply don't think that's true. I certainly don't think the Sacramento Kings of 2001-04 were any better than the Spurs, Mavs, Suns of current time. Yet the Nash/Dirk/Finley led Mavs lost to them twice in the playoffs, and only beat them that one year when Webber got hurt. And of course the Mavs never beat the Spurs in the playoffs until after Nash left.
Well in that case until you win the Championship, you are not successful. Yes they did reach NBA Finals and I will give them credit for defeating a very good Spurs team (their only playoff performance worth talking about) but they lost to a weaker Miami Heat. This year they are at the same place where they were when Nash left i.e. lost in the first round,
Had Dirk played like the way he plays in Regular Season, Dallas probably would have won the NBA title last year and they would be beating the crap out of Utah at this time of the year. So the problem is Dirk, his performance is rather ordinary in playoffs. Why does he need another inside presence like Duncan/Amare, why cant he be that inside presence ?
Dude Spending money isn't enough to get you the free agents, Remember Karl Malone/Gary Payton didn't cost much to the lakers, Michael Finley didn't cost much to Spurs. It's approaching the best free agent with right attitude, telling them that you are a legitimate contender. It may involve bucket lload of money, it may not. How much money Alanzo Mourning, Gary Payton were making in Miami ? Knicks spend way more than Cuban does, but look at what they have got, a reject of every team has landed in New York and it has become a mess. Obviously Cuban is too smart to get into that kind of mess. Also please dont blame Nellie for Cuban's mistake, If Cuban listened to Nellie, he would not have let Nash go. Cuban offers money to players based on his evaluation as was evident from Nash's Deal.
Before accusing me of 'faulting cuban because I dislike him so much', please try to read the posts properly. I also said Rasheed Wallace because I suspected If I gave example of only Shaq, I would be accused of exactly what you accused me of. Yes I dislike Cuban and blame him for not getting Shaq but not because of my dislikeness but IMO he didn't make enough effort to get Shaq. Yes I know how difficult it would have been for Mavs to get Shaq. But all Mark could spent was 2 minutes for a player like Shaq ?
Well I guess we can agree to diagree on that. Also, If you think the Western Conf and Spurs of today/last year are as good as 1999-2003 Spurs then I guess there is no point in discussing it any furthur. I totally respect your opinion.
Avery is a novice, but so was Phil Jackson when he went from a second year assistant to head coach. Avery has been a tremendous regular season coach so far, so maybe he needs better assistants like Jackson had with Tex Winter. If so, they ought to start with the defensive coach... Avery didn't coach well against Golden State or Miami, but I find it hard to criticise him for being schooled by guys who've been round (and round) the block, hell Nellie was ON the last team that won at least 65 games but not the championship.
The Bucks were built around Kareem. They were only in their second season when they drafted him. The trade for Robertson was the final piece of the puzzle and a lucky break. Kareem dominated the league from '71-'74. The Bucks tailed off when Robertson retired, but by that point Kareem didn't want to live in Milwaukee and demanded a trade. The early 80s Lakers were built around Kareem. Maybe the Showtime Lakers were built around Magic, but Kareem was still in the middle and they never won another title after his retirement. Anyway, every great team is built around a pivot guy, whether it's a center or a power forward who can play inside. Guards like Robertson and Magic often add the spark, but I can think of far more scorers who needed a go-to big guy, or guards who finally won when their team got a big.
Whether Isiah was their best player is debatable. The point is they had to put together a front court. Which teams have won a title simply because of their backcourt?
Salary caps/luxury tax/expiring contracts.
They don't miss him because of Webber. That team is in no shape, way or form built around Billups or Hamilton.
How many times did they squander a series lead? Multiple, multiple times.
A first round loss is a first round loss. The Kings and Timberwolves only made the Conference Finals once as well, and Dallas have proven to be a far better franchise than either of those clubs.
Probably called it here.
I never said teams have to be built around Guards, I just said that Teams have to be built around the best player and it doesn't matter what position he plays in. And I gave you examples of teams that were built around Guards/PGs. At least teams built around guards have been more successful than the teams built around power forwards.
No, A first round loss to the eventual Champions isn't same as the first Round loss to 8th seed.
The difference you fail to realize that is - Nellie's teams lost to better teams, whereas Avery's team lost to a a team that barely made it to the playoffs.
Only for the regular season.
I don't know if I agree that Ginobli is a dirty player. Bowen, on the other hand, has always been a dirty player. He gets away with a lot due to his experience and reputation as a defensive genius. I doubt the league is going to do much to him. He's the type of player who everyone hates…but would love if he was on their team. Kind of like Rodman.
