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Hayden vs Hussain

Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Swervy said:
FAO Richard...

I dont know where we talked about you not being overly complimentary regarding Yousuf

Here is what you said:
I'd not go so far as to say Youhana has no talent for the Test-match game, but not an extraorinary amount.
And no, he's not their second-best Test-batsman, Younis Khan is quite clearly better than him, as long as this is not another false dawn (and I can't help getting the feeling that he's got it right this time, unlike the last 3 or 4).
But yes, that he's their third-best Test-batsman doesn't say a lot for their Test-side - which is why it's so remarkable that they escaped with a drawn Test-series.

If you were to drop a high-profile player it'd be Youhana every time - in Tests.

Personally there are few I would rather not watch bat than Youhana and there have been 3 or 4 occasions when he's batted in a manner I find totally pointless and as boring as anything on a cricket field.


and here is an incredibly familiar looking type of debate:(from about 2 years ago)

Swerves: In the last 5 and a half years in games NOT against Bangladesh Youhana has played 39 tests, scored 2872 runs at 46.32 with 10 centuries and 11 50's

In the same timeframe, ganguly has played 47 tests, scored 2274 runs at 32.95 with 4 100's and 10 50's

Quite clearly since the turn of the century Youhana has been the far more successful player

Richard:Oh, yes, indeed, but Ganguly has played far stronger attacks than Youhana.
Think about it... when was the last time Youhana succeeded against a decent attack?

Youhana - whose ability is highly debatable).


Just to put the picture straight on that one...you see even you can get things wrong!!!!:laugh:
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What, because Yousuf has had the luckiest year surely in history? No, I never said that was impossible.

Undoubtedly, he's better than he was at the time of that argument (still not as good as Younis Khan, no way) but the Yousuf-Ganguly argument isn't a clear-cut one either, though the simplistic-minded types would probably make it out as such.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
open365 said:
Who did more to help his country win test matches?

Mathhew Hayden.

Who was the more consistent scorer by far?

Mathhew hayden.

Your point about Hayden only scoring against crap bowling is A) exagerated and B) Irrelevant.

It does not matter what standard bowling you face, runs still count the same, and by god Hayden scored a lot more of them than hussain. Maybe Hussain would average higher against Curtley ambrose on a seaming wicket, but the fact is facing bowling of that standard is incredibly rare so that fact is hypothetical and irrlevant.

Your job as a batsman is to score runs against the bowling that you have to face, and who did that better, Hussain or Hayden?

Your point may stand if Hussain averaged as much as Hayden did when they played in the same era, but it's not even close.
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Hussain did average more than Hayden, between 1993\94 and 2001, at a time when attacks were, in general, stronger.

And ANYTHING from that point onwards is irrelevant, because such happenings are reprisentative of an unusual period. In such a period, Hayden is clearly much the better. But most times in Test cricket history have not been akin to such a thing. So by the general criteria, Hussain trumps Hayden as a Test batsman.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
pup11 said:
Btw, are we comparing Hussain and Hayden only on basis of their test match performances or are we also taking their odi records into account too.
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The ODI question is completely irrelevant, it's Test matches which are concered here.
 
Swervy

Swervy

International Captain
Richard said:
What, because Yousuf has had the luckiest year surely in history? No, I never said that was impossible.

Undoubtedly, he's better than he was at the time of that argument (still not as good as Younis Khan, no way) but the Yousuf-Ganguly argument isn't a clear-cut one either, though the simplistic-minded types would probably make it out as such.
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you are right, the Yousuf/Ganguly case certainly is not a clear cut one, especially when relative to the Hussain vs Hayden one


By the way Yousuf has averaged 62 over his last 60 tests, I dont know whether you can put it down to luck...but then again you called McGrath a lucky bowler who rarely took wicket taking balls.

What this does prove though that players do change with time, they develop technically, or mentally, confidence ebbs and flows etc, and so thats why you cant directly compare the hayden of 1994 to the Hayden of the last 5 years
 
open365

open365

International Vice-Captain
Richard said:
What, because Yousuf has had the luckiest year surely in history? No, I never said that was impossible.

Undoubtedly, he's better than he was at the time of that argument (still not as good as Younis Khan, no way) but the Yousuf-Ganguly argument isn't a clear-cut one either, though the simplistic-minded types would probably make it out as such.
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You know that arguing ludicrous claims like Hussain being better than hayden doesn't make anyone think you're less simple minded?

I know you're smart and all, and that you seem to have an obsession with proving players with lower averages are better than players with higher ones. I do not know why you do this, maybe it makes you feel good inside, but accepting the facts does not make one a simple minded person.

Not everyone has a vendetta against popular cricketing opinion.
 
Swervy

Swervy

International Captain
Richard said:
No, he goes to show that being dropped 100 times in a year can make you look rather good.
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mmm.just one of those lucky players I guess:laugh:

Where does Hussain stand next to Yousuf in your funny little world? Better, worse?
 
P

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Richard said:
Count the number of let-offs he had between Dec 2005 and Nov 2006, then come back and blink again.
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The guy averaged nearly 100 in the year ffs. Give him some credit Richard. Alright he might have had let offs but even you must realise that he played some absolutely superb innings.
 
Swervy

Swervy

International Captain
open365 said:
You know that arguing ludicrous claims like Hussain being better than hayden doesn't make anyone think you're less simple minded?

I know you're smart and all, and that you seem to have an obsession with proving players with lower averages are better than players with higher ones. I do not know why you do this, maybe it makes you feel good inside, but accepting the facts does not make one a simple minded person.

Not everyone has a vendetta against popular cricketing opinion.
Click to expand...
Richard likes to be 'unorthodox'













(seeking attention):laugh:
 
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Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Swervy said:
you are right, the Yousuf/Ganguly case certainly is not a clear cut one, especially when relative to the Hussain vs Hayden one


By the way Yousuf has averaged 62 over his last 60 tests, I dont know whether you can put it down to luck...but then again you called McGrath a lucky bowler who rarely took wicket taking balls.

What this does prove though that players do change with time, they develop technically, or mentally, confidence ebbs and flows etc, and so thats why you cant directly compare the hayden of 1994 to the Hayden of the last 5 years
Click to expand...
Yousuf was nothing but a flat-track bully until the end of 2005, near enough everyone acknowledged that.

While he's been better in the last 12 months, to deny he's had a massive amount of luck would be to display a dismal ignorance of the game.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
open365 said:
You know that arguing ludicrous claims like Hussain being better than hayden doesn't make anyone think you're less simple minded?

I know you're smart and all, and that you seem to have an obsession with proving players with lower averages are better than players with higher ones. I do not know why you do this, maybe it makes you feel good inside, but accepting the facts does not make one a simple minded person.

Not everyone has a vendetta against popular cricketing opinion.
Click to expand...
Judging players purely by who has the highest career average is simplistic, extremely so.

Plenty often enough, the higher career-average player will be the better one, but to simply assume such a thing is crazy.
 
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