Is spin bowling a dying art in modern day cricket?

[shortpitched713]

IMO there should be targets for pitches in international matches. For example I think its absolutely neccessary for the survival of spinners that a third of all Test wickets take significant spin and half of ODI wickets do as well.

 

[adharcric]

Never mind.

Uhh, you do realize that he was talking about the subcontinent?

 

[SJS]

Uhh, you do realize that he was talking about the subcontinent?

No I didnt. Error. But for this particular period even that doesnt hold good (his arguement that it has been a pretty mediocre pool.

If you just read the bit about Kumble, Harbhajan, Murali and Saqlain (including Sri Lanka in the sub-continent is a bit debatable too), it still holds.

But yes I wrote a lot of totally irrelevant stuff.

PS : My apologies LastLaughInc. for not reading your post thoroughly. You can laugh at that.

I think it is best deleted. So I did that.

 

[Craig]

No irrelevent 3rd option and not a public poll? Dire indeed

 

[Matt79]

A sidelight but strange observation is the relatively poor standards of fielding amongst bowlers in general and spinners in particular. Why do they appear so slow and laid back on the field? The exceptions are, by and large though not always, those who are not masters of the art of spin. Is it true or am I imagining things ?

I'd suggest that the problem is that spinners are often fat bastards...

 

[SJS]

I'd suggest that the problem is that spinners are often fat bastards...

Warne and Prasanna are the two real fat spinners I recall from the greats I have seen but most others were trim enough in their playing days. Bedi, Venkit, Chandra, Durrani and Nadkarni from India, Underwood from England, Gibbs from Windies, Mallet from Australia, Naseem-ul-ghani from Pakistan come immediately to mind from the plder lot.

Kumble, Vettori, Saqlain, Harbhajan also cant be termed fat.

I suppose they are a bit laid back and unwilling to put in much physical effort to start with which makes them gravitate towards spin in the first place

 

[Matt79]

Warne and Prasanna are the two real fat spinners I recall from the greats I have seen but most others were trim enough in their playing days. Bedi, Venkit, Chandra, Durrani and Nadkarni from India, Underwood from England, Gibbs from Windies, Mallet from Australia, Naseem-ul-ghani from Pakistan come immediately to mind from the plder lot.

Kumble, Vettori, Saqlain, Harbhajan also cant be termed fat.

I suppose they are a bit laid back and unwilling to put in much physical effort to start with which makes them gravitate towards spin in the first place

So I make one utterly unjustified generalisation and suddenly everyone is all over me?

I'll refine it and say that you don't see many fat quicks and only a few fat batsmen, so comparatively spinners are a chubby lot...

 

[SJS]

So I make one utterly unjustified generalisation and suddenly everyone is all over me?

I'll refine it and say that you don't see many fat quicks and only a few fat batsmen, so comparatively spinners are a chubby lot...

No mate. There are the fat guys too.

Warne leads the pack. Murali isnt trim. Powar is tuby but doesnt play much. Prasanna as i said before. I suppose you could say that as far as bowlers go if there are going to be any fat ones they will be found among the spinners

 

[Trigger_Tiger]

.....

Bangladesh has tons, I'm sure so does SL and India has many as does Pakistan!

England are fast catching up and the Aussies are making sure there is no void in bowling variations either!

South Africa are the only team with the dire requirement of quality spin bolwers in their lineup.

Hence, spin bowling is not dead, but just not every teams' favorite weapon of choice!

 

[chaminda_00]

I don't really think there is much difference these between the quality of fast bowlers and spin bowlers. You ask any Indian, Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi and they will all say where are all the fast bowlers. There is no doubt Sri Lanka wont be able to produce a spinner for quality of Murali, but i would be very suprised if we can't produce a couple decent ones, that are a lot better then our current pool of seamers.

In reality Sri Lanka has hardly ever played a specialist spinner with Murali. Most the 2nd spinner duties have been given to all rounders in Chandana, Jayasuriya and Dharamensena(sp). There are quite a few spinners in Sri Lanka you could argue where better bowlers then these two, in the last generation, that never got a run as they weren't bowling all rounders. I think a lot people will be surprised how often we played a crappy 3rd seamer over a 2nd spinners.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't really think there is much difference these between the quality of fast bowlers and spin bowlers. You ask any Indian, Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi and they will all say where are all the fast bowlers. There is no doubt Sri Lanka wont be able to produce a spinner for quality of Murali, but i would be very suprised if we can't produce a couple decent ones, that are a lot better then our current pool of seamers.

In reality Sri Lanka has hardly ever played a specialist spinner with Murali. Most the 2nd spinner duties have been given to all rounders in Chandana, Jayasuriya and Dharamensena(sp). There are quite a few spinners in Sri Lanka you could argue where better bowlers then these two, in the last generation, that never got a run as they weren't bowling all rounders. I think a lot people will be surprised how often we played a crappy 3rd seamer over a 2nd spinners.

Herath wasn't bad IMO. His test record isn't great, but nor is it horrible for someone who only played 12 tests - and quite a few of those were against Australia as well IIRC.

 

[SJS]

You ask any Indian, Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi and they will all say where are all the fast bowlers.

Thats not really the case. New spinners arent coming through the system. We just keep getting medium pacers. The numbers is not a problem with medium pacers, its the speed AND quality. But the numbers are not bad at all. Look at how many new bowlers we have tried in the last 4-5 years.

With spinners we have neither quality nor numbers

 

[chaminda_00]

Thats not really the case. New spinners arent coming through the system. We just keep getting medium pacers. The numbers is not a problem with medium pacers, its the speed AND quality. But the numbers are not bad at all. Look at how many new bowlers we have tried in the last 4-5 years.

With spinners we have neither quality nor numbers

How many of those new bowlers who have been tired where spinners. With Kumble and Singh in the India side, not many young spinners have been given a chance to show if they got what it takes at the national level. Murali Karthik impressed many and a lot of critics have got huge raps on Chawla. I wouldn't be surprised if there is more like these guys coming through.

 

[Richard]

However, as, for example, Oz has shown, with no less than 5 spinners gaining central contracts, a lot is being done to ensure that serviceable test spinners are developed

Giving spinners contracts won't change bad ones into good ones.

 

[SJS]

I wouldn't be surprised if there is more like these guys coming through.

Strange the selectors cant see them

 

[Richard]

Australia, India, Pakistan have been the countries with a strong tradition for long.

Australia sure had a strong tradition between 1964 and 1993, didn't they? Those mighty spinners Rex Sellars, David Sincock, John Gleeson, Terry Jenner, Kerry O'Keeffe, Ken Eastwood, John Watkins, Ray Bright, Bruce Yardley, Peter Sleep, Tom Hogan, Bob Holland, Murray Bennett, Peter Taylor, Tim May and Trevor Hohns?

And aside from Abdul Qadir and Iqbal Qasim followed by Mushtaq Ahmed and Saqlain Mushtaq, I struggle to think of many fine upstanding Pakistani spinners either.

England lost wrist spinners long back but continued with finger spin and even that has almost vanished as far as real quality is concerned for many years now.

I can't see that the quality has vanished, it makes no sense. Simple truth is that England was until 1970 a good place to bowl fingerspin as there was often a decent chance of a rain-affected pitch (and as such we didn't really need wristspinners, and never had any of great quality, Douglas Wright being the best). Since covering that has ceased to be the case (there are 2 or 3 at best, none Test, grounds which offer something to fingerspin in Britain), so even the best English fingerspinners (Underwood post-1972, Edmunds, Emburey, Tufnell, Croft, Giles) have rarely achieved much.

 

[chaminda_00]

Strange the selectors cant see them

One could argue with all the mediocre seamers they have picked recently they are not the best judges.

I don't know im sure the depth in spin bowling ranks in India is not that great or when Kumble (in ODIs) and Singh were out of form they would have picked other guys. But i guess they did have a bit of faith in those two they will come good. Also by picking more seamers they have tired to fix a long term problem, which has been the same situation in Sri Lanka.

Do you really think the depth in India spin bowling ranks is that bad, cus when i look at some of the spinners FC stats, compared to seamers that have played for India, they don't look that bad. Murali Kartik did a pretty good for Lancashire last season, from the scorecards i saw and has impressed me when i seen him bowl. Just looks to me more like a lack of oppurtunity for the spinners, then depth. But i guess you have seen more of them bowl, to have better idea.

 

[Richard]

Herath wasn't bad IMO. His test record isn't great, but nor is it horrible for someone who only played 12 tests - and quite a few of those were against Australia as well IIRC.

And before him there was Bandaritilleke (sp?) too.

A shame indeed that there has rarely been much top-quality spin Murali-aside in SL over the past 15 years.

 

[pup11]

The point that i am trying to make is that there are a lot of people around the world who are rolling their arms over and trying to turn the ball, but their quality is highly questionable.


There is no young upcoming spinner around the world who one can say has something special in him, because one has to agree unless a spinner is good and has some good "toys" in his kitty he can't survive in modern day cricket.

 

[Richard]

IMO there should be targets for pitches in international matches. For example I think its absolutely neccessary for the survival of spinners that a third of all Test wickets take significant spin and half of ODI wickets do as well.

I'd just be happy for most Indian and Lankan pitches to mostly be turners.

Seriously, how many real proper turners have we seen in India these last 6 or 7 years? Not many. How would the famous Bedi-Chandra-Pras\Venkat triumvarate have fared in recent times?