Where to for NZ cricket in the next few years?

[tooextracool]

Harsh. A test bowling ave of 28.19 is perfectly acceptable for an NZ bowler and his batting is more than useful... good enough to be batting as high as 6, sooner rather than later

His bowling is overrated IMO, and i expect that record to get worse as he starts playing on flatter wickets.

 

[Fiery]

His bowling is overrated IMO, and i expect that record to get worse as he starts playing on flatter wickets.

I haven't heard too many people overate Franklin's bowling...quite the opposite in fact

 

[Flem274*]

I haven't heard too many people overate Franklin's bowling...quite the opposite in fact

I have'nt heard ANYONE overrate his bowling.

 

[Will Scarlet]

I think Franklin could be one of our best players in the next few years.

Gillespie will do OK when he's given a few matches to get in form.

Ryder is the most over-rated player in NZ cricket. A close second is Ross Taylor. Talent is not enough if you can't turn it into performance on a regular basis.

I can't believe that people in this forum still think that Fulton shouldn't be in both the test and ODI teams: he's the only stable batsmn we have. If he is given a decent go in test cricket (not opening) then he'll probably end his career with a test average of at least 40, especially now that Australia's bowling attack is weakened.

Also, why does anyone think that Vincent should be opening in tests? He specifically stated that he wanted to bat in the middle order, and performed best there. And there are several specialist openers in form in FC cricket, so why shuffle Vincent up?

 

[Flem274*]

I think Franklin could be one of our best players in the next few years.

Gillespie will do OK when he's given a few matches to get in form.

Ryder is the most over-rated player in NZ cricket. A close second is Ross Taylor. Talent is not enough if you can't turn it into performance on a regular basis.

I can't believe that people in this forum still think that Fulton shouldn't be in both the test and ODI teams: he's the only stable batsmn we have. Is he is given a decent go in test cricket (not opening) then he'll probably end his career with a test average of at least 40, especially now that Australia's bowling attack is weakened.

Also, why does anyone think that Vincent should be opening in tests? He specifically stated that he wanted to bat in the middle order, and performed bes there. And there are several specialist openers in form in FC cricket, so why shuffle Vincent up?

Well yes, but it's always nice to have talented players in the hope of turning that talent into class. I'm not worried about our batting actualy, it's the bowling that we need to sort out. As well as our injury curse. I'm not worried about our spinners, we've got three that could do the job and some more that if desperate we can go to.

How about this team (my preferred team seems to change on a daily basis )

Test

Ingram
Papps
Fulton
Vincent
Styris
Oram
McCulum
Franklin
Bond
Patel
Gillespie

Franklin is quite decent in tests, just keep him away from ODI's. Mark Gillespie is not a third seamer, he should open with bond. Vettori is a better ODI spinner I feel so why not give Patel a go? Papps and Ingram are (IMO) the best openers in NZ ATM. Fulton, Styris and Vincent are the best performing Middle order players ATM so they should get in. As a Fleming fan it hurts me to say this but ATM he does not deserve a test spot ahead of those guys. In my past prefferred teams he has been there because we all know what he can do but I feel we need a fresh start with the test team.

 

[Bahnz]

Test

Ingram
Papps
Fulton
Vincent
Styris
Oram
McCulum
Franklin
Bond
Patel
Gillespie

That team is far too inexperienced. Styris has played the most matches out of them, and even he has only played 27 test matches. Fleming's experience as a captain is vital, especially since he's still probably preparing a future captain. That and he's our highest ever run scorer. Just because he struggles against Chaminda Vaas doesn't mean he deserves to be dropped. Same goes for Vettori. Did you forget that in his last test match he got a 10 wicket haul on a green top, while the rest of our bowlers fell to bits? I'm all for bringing in new players, but the process should be gradual, not overnight.

 

[thierry henry]

His bowling is overrated IMO, and i expect that record to get worse as he starts playing on flatter wickets.

It's clearly underrated, given the way people talk about him. And he has certainly not bowled predominantly on green tops.

 

[thierry henry]

Ryder is the most over-rated player in NZ cricket. A close second is Ross Taylor. Talent is not enough if you can't turn it into performance on a regular basis.

What utter rubbish. re: Taylor, in terms of saying he should be in the test team you might be right, but in terms of one day cricket, his performances have been better than ANYONE'S at domestic level in recent years.

And with Ryder, you might be right regarding ODI's, but by NZ standards his domestic FC performances have been outstanding! Taylor and Ryder (in one form of the game each, admittedly) are shining examples of young NZ batsmen who DO have the form on the board and the performances under their belts.

 

[thierry henry]

It depends who the coach is. If it's Bracewell I bet Bangladesh could easily surpass us in tests if things keep going in our downward trend.

Here is a list of players I think we should start introducing to international cricket

Ryder
Papps (recall)
Diamanti
Hay
O'Brien
Ingram
Houpapa
Davis
Southee
Harvie
Broom
Hopkins
McGlashan
T Astle
J McMillan
N McCullum

There are probably others I've forgotten. But I expect a fair amount of those gys to be in the mix in the future.

Another thing we need to do is find out why all our potentialy top shelf players, especially bowlers, get injured so often.Crowe, Allot, Nash, Cairns, Bond and Taylor looks to be going the same way. We need to eliminate this problem, now.

Seriously, Diamanti makes Tama Canning look threatening. Exactly what role would a 120kph bowler play in test cricket?

 

[Flem274*]

What role would a 120kph bowler play in test cricket?

Seriously, Diamanti makes Tama Canning look threatening. Exactly what role would a 120kph bowler play in test cricket?

Shaun Pollock

Though admittedly his batting is far FAR superior to Diamanti's. And his bowling.

Anyway, they're just options, and we need options. The more players that we find that can hack it at the top level, the better.

 

[Flem274*]

Test

Ingram
Papps
Fulton
Vincent
Styris
Oram
McCulum
Franklin
Bond
Patel
Gillespie

That team is far too inexperienced. Styris has played the most matches out of them, and even he has only played 27 test matches. Fleming's experience as a captain is vital, especially since he's still probably preparing a future captain. That and he's our highest ever run scorer. Just because he struggles against Chaminda Vaas doesn't mean he deserves to be dropped. Same goes for Vettori. Did you forget that in his last test match he got a 10 wicket haul on a green top, while the rest of our bowlers fell to bits? I'm all for bringing in new players, but the process should be gradual, not overnight.

I agree with you, it should be gradual. I'm not trying to knock Fleming in any way, I just listed our top performing middle order guys ATM. OK I accept Vettori, I did forget that match. In fact, I didn't know we played tests, I thought tests were just for the other teams.

I accept all your points, I just decided to post a team we could use.

 

[thierry henry]

Well, good for you if you think Diamanti can be our Pollock. I've seen him plenty and I swear he is the second coming of Tama Canning. I guess the difference can be subtle. I'm not exactly sure about Diamanti's pace though- I think he's in the Canning/Astle, 'keeper up over the stumps category, low 120s at best. If he can be at least 125kph+, and genuinely take the new ball, well (a) he must have improved since I saw him, and (b) there's a very small chance that he might be worth a go.

 

[Flem274*]

Well, good for you if you think Diamanti can be our Pollock. I've seen him plenty and I swear he is the second coming of Tama Canning. I guess the difference can be subtle. I'm not exactly sure about Diamanti's pace though- I think he's in the Canning/Astle, 'keeper up over the stumps category, low 120s at best. If he can be at least 125kph+, and genuinely take the new ball, well (a) he must have improved since I saw him, and (b) there's a very small chance that he might be worth a go.

I never said he could be Shaun Pollock, I just thought of a 120kph bowler. As I said, he is just an option, nothing wrong with looking for options......

What do you think of the other guys mentioned, incidentally?

 

[Prince EWS]

Pollock bowls 125-130km/h. Not really a 120 merchant. He also has every delivery at his exposal, superb accuracy and a good mind for figuring batsmen out. I haven't seen Diamanti bowl, but if he really is a specialist bowler who bowls at 120km/h, I'd stray away from him unless he had outstanding figures, especially given what pitches in NZ domestic cricket would be likely offer a bowler of that type in comparison to the pitches at test/ODI level.

 

[Flem274*]

Pollock bowls 125-130km/h. Not really a 120 merchant. He also has every delivery at his exposal, superb accuracy and a good mind for figuring batsmen out. I haven't seen Diamanti bowl, but if he really is a specialist bowler who bowls at 120km/h, I'd stray away from him unless he had outstanding figures, especially given what pitches in NZ domestic cricket would be likely offer a bowler of that type in comparison to the pitches at test/ODI level.

I'm going to agree with you there. Michael Mason's mug has just popped into my head and he's pretty good in domestic cricket IIRC and is an accuracy bowler. He has'nt achieved much in international cricket so I am going to change my mind on Diamanti.

 

[Will Scarlet]

What utter rubbish. re: Taylor, in terms of saying he should be in the test team you might be right, but in terms of one day cricket, his performances have been better than ANYONE'S at domestic level in recent years.

And with Ryder, you might be right regarding ODI's, but by NZ standards his domestic FC performances have been outstanding! Taylor and Ryder (in one form of the game each, admittedly) are shining examples of young NZ batsmen who DO have the form on the board and the performances under their belts.

Ryder's form last FC season was far from stunning. He got a start and blew it in nearly every innings. He requires a consistent FC season before being considered ahead of Sinclair or Styris.

Ross Taylor's form in NZ OD cricket is excellent - without doubt - but he needs a few games back in there to get some confidence.

I'd like to see both these guys succeed but neither are test quality batsmen yet.

 

[GGG]

Anyone have any comments on some of the names @ http://www.stuff.co.nz/4042267a2201.html I have been out of the country for a few years so I haven't really been following the domestic comp. Some of the names that don't ring any bells - Kane Williamson, Corey Anderson, Tim Southee, Hamish Bennett and Trent Boult.

 

[Will Scarlet]

Bracewell's an idiot

A good example of Bracewell's stupidity was his comments today:

1) We saw Ross Taylor's development over in the WC.

What development? His form was pitiful.

2) He's excited about the future of NZ cricket based on our form in the WC.

While the BCs played well in a few matches they played terrible in the three games they lost, and showed that the death bowling is still a problem and that our batting is still brittle.

Obviously he's over-stating excitement to encourage NZC to extend his contract. I certainly hope NZC is not so stupid.

 

[meatspx]

We lost in the semi-final of the champions trophy, the crunch game in the Australian tri-series and the semi-final of the WC. Bracewell your team has failed in the last year of ODI cricket and you still have problems with a third seamer, top order batting (Vincent's & Taylor's injuries didn't help) and death bowling! Time to go buddy!

If Fleming was to play in the test team I would open with him instead of wasting him on a 3/4 spot which would be easier to fill (Styris, Taylor, Vincent & Fulton). The only openers I would feel comfortable with are Papps & Cumming - though I find it difficult to play both of these players at the expense of either Vincent/Taylor or Fulton.

My top six:
Papps
Fleming
Taylor (perhaps Styris or Fulton)
Styris
Fulton
Oram

 

[thierry henry]

Ryder's form last FC season was far from stunning. He got a start and blew it in nearly every innings. He requires a consistent FC season before being considered ahead of Sinclair or Styris

I don't know that Ryder should be in the test side either, but his FC average is 44.88. That is terrific by NZ standards. You can't go accusing him of not performing at NZ domestic level.