Is KP worthy of No.1 title?

[Jono]

Ponting easily the best ODI batsman in the world at the moment for me. Until this WC, Hussey was #2 but he's slipping fast, Pietersen #3 and Clarke very close behind him at #4.

I think Clarke's an underrated ODI batsman, but #4 in the world before the WC? Not sure about that. You've gotta take into account all aspects of the game. Clarke is very flexible, however I think there are better batsman who have similar abilities to him, but are better at say 4/80 chasing 250 then he is. I'd have him in the top 10-12 at the moment, but not 4.

Why do you think he's good enough to be #4? I know he's kept his high average over a number of years now, which is amazing really, but just from the CB series and other times, he gets out when he should in pressure chases, and inexperience isn't a factor or excuse anymore obviously.

 

[Johnners]

Have to agree with Jono, althought i'd say top 8-10. In regards to pressure innings though, imo one of his best ODI innings came in the 1st Tri-Series final in 05/06, iirc he singlehandedly kept us in the game while the rest of the batting collapsed around him. As you say though, he's got the experience now, and he needs to produce such innings (when given the opportunity) to stamp himself as one of the top 3, something i've no doubt he is capable of, and hopefully will start to do in the near future.

 

[jammay123]

if you're good enough to play for South Africa, you will make the final 15, and anyone who disagrees is either fundementally racist or chronically short-sighted

so is loots bosman better than dippenar

 

[honestbharani]

I think he deserves it, tbh. He has done consistently against some of the better attacks. I can see why he rubs a lot of people the wrong way but he has done well enough to be no.1 at the moment.


Having said that, personally, I would take punter over him.

 

[Matt79]

I think Clarke's an underrated ODI batsman, but #4 in the world before the WC? Not sure about that. You've gotta take into account all aspects of the game. Clarke is very flexible, however I think there are better batsman who have similar abilities to him, but are better at say 4/80 chasing 250 then he is. I'd have him in the top 10-12 at the moment, but not 4.

Why do you think he's good enough to be #4? I know he's kept his high average over a number of years now, which is amazing really, but just from the CB series and other times, he gets out when he should in pressure chases, and inexperience isn't a factor or excuse anymore obviously.

Who, besides KP, Ponting and Hussey are the seven players that are better than him? I think Clarke is extremely underrated factor in the Aussie machine, but will have the opportunity to make more big knocks and effect big rescues when the team needs it (ie all the things that establish you as a top-drawer OD batsman) now that he's further up the order. Others probably produce innings of brilliance more regularly than him, but almost none can match him for consistency and getting the job asked of them done. Just my opinion anyway...

 

[Nishant]

so is loots bosman better than dippenar

thatsa good point TBH....dippenar > Bosman IMO....

 

[Perm]

so is loots bosman better than dippenar

No way, he is nowhere near as good as Boeta Dippenaar is.

 

[Jono]

Who, besides KP, Ponting and Hussey are the seven players that are better than him? I think Clarke is extremely underrated factor in the Aussie machine, but will have the opportunity to make more big knocks and effect big rescues when the team needs it (ie all the things that establish you as a top-drawer OD batsman) now that he's further up the order. Others probably produce innings of brilliance more regularly than him, but almost none can match him for consistency and getting the job asked of them done. Just my opinion anyway...

Going by the rankings, there are 14 better players.

Ignoring Ponting, Pietersen and Hussey, at this moment in time, I'd take Sangakkara, Smith, Dravid, Yousuf and Kallis over Clarke. Hard to guage Symonds since he's been out for a while, but he's the better batsman.

The ironic thing about this is for ages I've been claiming Clarke to be one of the most underrated ODI bats around. I still think he's got a way to go to be in the top 5 though. What is brilliant about Clarke with the bat is previously he was perfect for the number 6 role Australia had him fill. If he'd come in in the middle overs, he'd milk the bowling until he was set, and if he came in with 5-7 left, he could tee off pretty early, and make 1s into 2s, and 2s into 3s with his brilliant running, and also get the 'set' batsman on strike (did that a number of times with Symonds). But, at the crunch I'd take the batsman I've mentioned before Clarke, that's just my opinion though.

 

[jammay123]

No way, he is nowhere near as good as Boeta Dippenaar is.

i rest my case

 

[TT Boy]

thatsa good point TBH....dippenar > Bosman IMO....

It's not really for Loots is in the side for he fits the team ethos, Boeta does not. Being coloured may have helped in his selection (filling up the quota) but for the likes of Alfonso Thomas being coloured did not mean **** when the likes of Andre Nel were selected in front of him. Boeta only has he self to blame for his axing, he could not change or adapt his game to South Africa's thinking. His non selection is no injustice or a reflection of reverse racism for if he scored runs then their would be no debate. It's very hard to get dropped in this South African squad, the selectors have a lot of favourites and white cricketers such as AB and Andre Nel have been looked after very well by Cricket South Africa in spite of poor performances.

Boeta, has also supposedly been given a free ride in South Africa’s next home test series regardless of his form in SuperSport and his past/continual failures in test cricket. Hardly evidence to suggest of a cricketer who has been harshly mistreated by his cricket board considering ludicrously he still has a national contract. Paul Harris and Morne Morkel, two individuals who have contributed to recent South African test victories have no such contract (neither does Loots Bosman).

 

[Perm]

It's not really for Loots is in the side for he fits the team ethos, Boeta does not. Being coloured may have helped in his selection (filling up the quota) but for the likes of Alfonso Thomas being coloured did not mean **** when the likes of Andre Nel were selected in front of him. Boeta only has he self to blame for his axing, he could not change or adapt his game to South Africa's thinking. His non selection is no injustice or a reflection of reverse racism for if he scored runs then their would be no debate. It's very hard to get dropped in this South African squad, the selectors have a lot of favourites and white cricketers such as AB and Andre Nel have been looked after very well by Cricket South Africa in spite of poor performances.

Boeta, has also supposedly been given a free ride in South Africa’s next home test series regardless of his form in SuperSport and his past/continual failures in test cricket. Hardly evidence to suggest of a cricketer who has been harshly mistreated by his cricket board considering ludicrously he still has a national contract. Paul Harris and Morne Morkel, two individuals who have contributed to recent South African test victories have no such contract (neither does Loots Bosman).

Firstly, your comments about Boeta Dippenaar are ridiculous. The man averages 42.87 in ODI cricket which places him 10th on the averages list of current players, a remarkable acheivement. Now, the fact that he is only striking at under 70 is irrelevant because quite clearly he is getting the runs on the board to compensate for the pace at which he bats. He did have a very poor Champions Trophy but that was no excuse to drop him for a slogger who has done nothing to prove that he's good enough at the highest level and who has only one innings of note and that was against Zimbabwe.

Now, I'm not going to get into the whole black vs white quota selection issue because I am no expert on that matter and discussing it quite frankly bores and annoys me. I find it amazing how you think that Loots Bosman should be in the ODI side ahead of Boeta Dippenaar considering that Dippenaar is quite obviously a better player, regardless of what colour he is. Also, can you provide evidence that Dippenaar has been given a "free ride" in South Africa's next Test series or is it just a rumour? He still has a national contract because he is a very good ODI player, although I agree he is not up to Test standard at the moment. Bringing Paul Harris and Morne Morkel into the equation is pointless, they aren't fighting for a contract up against Dipenaar or Bosman but up against the other bowlers.

 

[Jono]

On top of that, you can't justify having Prince and Boeta in the same team, along with Kallis. It just won't work.

 

[Matt79]

Going by the rankings, there are 14 better players.

Ignoring Ponting, Pietersen and Hussey, at this moment in time, I'd take Sangakkara, Smith, Dravid, Yousuf and Kallis over Clarke. Hard to guage Symonds since he's been out for a while, but he's the better batsman.

The ironic thing about this is for ages I've been claiming Clarke to be one of the most underrated ODI bats around. I still think he's got a way to go to be in the top 5 though. What is brilliant about Clarke with the bat is previously he was perfect for the number 6 role Australia had him fill. If he'd come in in the middle overs, he'd milk the bowling until he was set, and if he came in with 5-7 left, he could tee off pretty early, and make 1s into 2s, and 2s into 3s with his brilliant running, and also get the 'set' batsman on strike (did that a number of times with Symonds). But, at the crunch I'd take the batsman I've mentioned before Clarke, that's just my opinion though.

Fair enough - it's a close enough thing to be a matter of opinion. I'd rank Clarke ahead of Dravid and Kallis because he's more flexible than either of them and more able to adjust to the needs of the team. Rahul and Jacques are very good batsmen, but can legitimately be criticised for being a bit one-paced, unlike Clarke. I'm probably somewhat biased against Smith because the vast majority of the matches I've seen him play in have been against Australia where he has generally got owned - especially on his most recent visit down under. Sangers is a fair call though. Yousuf has never seemed as impressive in ODIs to me as he has in Tests. Symonds probably falls in the category of "plays individual innings better than anything Clarke has done", but if I needed the team to win to save my life, and had to choose whether Clarke or Symonds would be doing the batting, I'd choose Clarke.

 

[Perm]

On top of that, you can't justify having Prince and Boeta in the same team, along with Kallis. It just won't work.

With guys like Smith, de Villiers, Gibbs, Boucher and Kallis all striking at over 80 during their careers I think it's perfectly feasable. Kallis doesn't generally score at a slow rate, but on the odd occasion when he does it has a major effect on the team. He is perfectly capable of scoring at a run a ball, just like all the other batsman in the South African lineup.

 

[shortpitched713]

I'd rank Clarke ahead of Dravid and Kallis because he's more flexible than either of them and more able to adjust to the needs of the team. Rahul and Jacques are very good batsmen, but can legitimately be criticised for being a bit one-paced, unlike Clarke.

That is purely and simply a stereotype. There is very little to suggest that Kallis, and in the later part of his career Dravid are inflexible batsmen. They both perform a certain role in the team but are perfectly capable of playing differently to that role, case in point Kallis's recent innings against West Indies. However, most of the time it is in the team's best interest if they play more conservatively and are thus seen as less flexible because they have less opportunity to showcase it.

 

[Jono]

Fair enough - it's a close enough thing to be a matter of opinion. I'd rank Clarke ahead of Dravid and Kallis because he's more flexible than either of them and more able to adjust to the needs of the team. Rahul and Jacques are very good batsmen, but can legitimately be criticised for being a bit one-paced, unlike Clarke. I'm probably somewhat biased against Smith because the vast majority of the matches I've seen him play in have been against Australia where he has generally got owned - especially on his most recent visit down under. Sangers is a fair call though. Yousuf has never seemed as impressive in ODIs to me as he has in Tests. Symonds probably falls in the category of "plays individual innings better than anything Clarke has done", but if I needed the team to win to save my life, and had to choose whether Clarke or Symonds would be doing the batting, I'd choose Clarke.

Off topic a little, but he was probably a better ODI player than test player until the last 2 years. Before then his achievements were few and far between in the test arena actually.

Anyway, all fair points, and the last thing I want to do is get into picking at Clarke's faults, because I rate him quite highly, but I do think you're a little off with Dravid and Kallis (as short pitched mentioned). There are plenty of examples of Dravid teeing off at the death since 2001 onwards, and doing so very successfully. He just often chooses not to do it, because with Tendulkar, Sehwag, Ganguly, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Uthappa, Gambhir and whoever else has graced the ODI team in the past, they've generally been the strokemakers of the team, and its been Dravid's role to be the rock and anchor the innings.

I dare say in recent times his strike rate has often been ahead of Ganguly and Sachin actually, so I think you've overestimated his inflexibility. Kallis is an even more straight forward case, he clearly bats how he bats because he wants to/is told to, not because he can't bat in any other way.

 

[Dasa]

I dare say in recent times his strike rate has often been ahead of Ganguly and Sachin actually, so I think you've overestimated his inflexibility.

Stats for 2007 (choosing that as a cutoff because that's Ganguly only made his return in ODIs then):
Tendulkar - 310 runs @ 44.29, SR of 99.04
Ganguly - 509 runs @ 63.63, SR of 71.89
Dravid - 363 runs @ 51.86, SR of 81.03

 

[adharcric]

Stats for 2007 (choosing that as a cutoff because that's Ganguly only made his return in ODIs then):
Tendulkar - 253 runs @ 36.14, SR of 89.08
Ganguly - 420 runs @ 60.00, SR of 70.71
Dravid - 356 runs @ 50.86, SR of 79.82

Farewell Bermuda.

 

[pup11]

How the ICC player ranking system works is not transparent at all, and man like KP who played only one game in the CB Series and they played some decent knocks in this WC is ranked no.1 ahead of guys like Ponting,Jayasuriya,Kallis who all have been scoring heavily in the recent past.



Does the ICC player ranking take into account whether a player's innings was in a winning cause or not or in what situations those runs were made in.

 

[Hoppy1987]

he was given no1 after what 2 or 3 knocks in this wc though? so 4 good innings in the past 6 months or so in odis, how is scotty styris not up there??