New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[Bahnz]

No offence Bahnz, but this kind of depressive, wrist-slitting melancholy you're displaying right now really pisses me off.

The fact is that we've just come off a nine game streak, a number of our batsmen have recently been in their best ever form, our strike bowler is generally regarded as the best at this tournament, our recent record against Sri Lanka is actually quite good, and we're still second on the Super Eights table.

The fact is that 15 of the teams in this World Cup are not going to win it, so I don't understand the abject depression over this loss when New Zealand is clearly one of the very best teams in the world right now. We still have an excellent chance to win the World Cup. Hopefully the players themselves have more stomach for a fight than some of the members posting in this forum.

I really don't take the 9 game winning streak too seriously considering 4 of those games were against Kenya, Canada, Bangladesh and Ireland. And yes many of our batsmen have been in good form during this tournament, but what happens the first time they come up against a quality bowling attack in swinging conditions? They fall to pieces. Even Styris (and god bless the virus for saving us from total embarrassment) struggled to keep the score ticking over.

No disagreement that Bondy is a class act, but he has no one with him during the opening 10 overs, which makes it so hard for him to take any wickets. It isn't a coincidence that Bond has taken most of his wickets at this tournament during his second spell. Its because then he gets to bowl with a decent middle overs bowler, who generally keeps things tight and occasionally gets the odd wicket (ie. Vettori/Styris). If Bond has to keep opening with Franklin/Gillespie (in his current state)/Martin, he simply isn't going to be able to influence the match in the same way as if he had a Vaas or a Bracken at the other end.

And no our recent record against Sri Lanka isn't that good. 5 losses from our last 7 (or is it 6 from 8? I can't remember) games. One of our wins was in a washed out game, which basically degenerated into a glorified 20/20 match. The other we won by one wicket off the last ball. And this was when we had the home advantage. I do agree with you that Sri Lanka is a good side. They're a very good side. Player for player they should always mop the floor with us. In the past we used to have an edge on the subcontinent teams in that we could play like a team. But not this Sri Lankan side. Tom Moody has injected with so much team spirit and energy, they arguably look like the most cohesive unit in the cup. I still don't think they have the lower order hitting to beat Australia, but who knows?

I'm not saying that this New Zealand team is a particularly poor one. They're a long way ahead of the World Cup sides of '96 and '03. But the simple fact is they're not good enough to beat Sri Lanka, and even despite the CH series, I don't think much of our chances of matching it with a revitalised Australia. And after the euphoria of last month, thats a hard pill to swallow.

 

[Bahnz]

Have faith my friend. Have optimism (even if of the blind variety)

Nah it's way better being a pessimist. That way you're fully prepared when you lose, and get a nice surprise when you win!

 

[Dick Rockett]

I really don't take the 9 game winning streak too seriously considering 4 of those games were against Kenya, Canada, Bangladesh and Ireland. And yes many of our batsmen have been in good form during this tournament, but what happens the first time they come up against a quality bowling attack in swinging conditions? They fall to pieces. Even Styris (and god bless the virus for saving us from total embarrassment) struggled to keep the score ticking over.

No disagreement that Bondy is a class act, but he has no one with him during the opening 10 overs, which makes it so hard for him to take any wickets. It isn't a coincidence that Bond has taken most of his wickets at this tournament during his second spell. Its because then he gets to bowl with a decent middle overs bowler, who generally keeps things tight and occasionally gets the odd wicket (ie. Vettori/Styris). If Bond has to keep opening with Franklin/Gillespie (in his current state)/Martin, he simply isn't going to be able to influence the match in the same way as if he had a Vaas or a Bracken at the other end.

And no our recent record against Sri Lanka isn't that good. 5 losses from our last 7 (or is it 6 from 8? I can't remember) games. One of our wins was in a washed out game, which basically degenerated into a glorified 20/20 match. The other we won by one wicket off the last ball. And this was when we had the home advantage. I do agree with you that Sri Lanka is a good side. They're a very good side. Player for player they should always mop the floor with us. In the past we used to have an edge on the subcontinent teams in that we could play like a team. But not this Sri Lankan side. Tom Moody has injected with so much team spirit and energy, they arguably look like the most cohesive unit in the cup. I still don't think they have the lower order hitting to beat Australia, but who knows?

I'm not saying that this New Zealand team is a particularly poor one. They're a long way ahead of the World Cup sides of '96 and '03. But the simple fact is they're not good enough to beat Sri Lanka, and even despite the CH series, I don't think much of our chances of matching it with a revitalised Australia. And after the euphoria of last month, thats a hard pill to swallow.

I'm not going to turn this into a point-by-point C_C style argument, but I will underline that I think you're being a bit too negative after one loss against a very good side. Besides that, it's not you in particular I'm having a go at, it's the whole Kiwi habit of jumping on the bandwagon when we win, then putting the boot in when we lose, particularly after a single loss on the tail of a long winning streak. Incidentally, four of those games may have been against minnows, but at least we did the right thing by disembowelling them. Look at England.

 

[Bahnz]

I'm not going to turn this into a point-by-point C_C style argument, but I will underline that I think you're being a bit too negative after one loss against a very good side. Besides that, it's not you in particular I'm having a go at, it's the whole Kiwi habit of jumping on the bandwagon when we win, then putting the boot in when we lose, particularly after a single loss on the tail of a long winning streak. Incidentally, four of those games may have been against minnows, but at least we did the right thing by disembowelling them. Look at England.

True, but I'm still not inclined to rate this run of wins alongside our 1992 efforts. Anyway, I probably am being too negative, side affect of my fiance running off with another man, my house burning down, getting fired from my job, and receiving the news from my doctor that I have no fewer than 7 STD's. None of which I rate as more upsetting than a New Zealand cricket loss, of course.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

NZ to go on a 4 match win streak from here, guys and girls!!

 

[Dasgupta]

True, but I'm still not inclined to rate this run of wins alongside our 1992 efforts. Anyway, I probably am being too negative, side affect of my fiance running off with another man, my house burning down, getting fired from my job, and receiving the news from my doctor that I have no fewer than 7 STD's. None of which I rate as more upsetting than a New Zealand cricket loss, of course.

I hope we win the SA game on Sunday morning just for your sake

 

[Dasgupta]

NZ to go on a 4 match win streak from here, guys and girls!!

Attaboy!

 

[shortpitched713]

and we're still second on the Super Eights table.

Don't mean to burst your bubble of perfect optimism, but SL are ahead of NZ on NRR.

 

[Dick Rockett]

Don't mean to burst your bubble of perfect optimism, but SL are ahead of NZ on NRR.

Are they? I didn't know. Anyway, pffft.

 

[Isolator]

hay we r gr8 we beat austrlia 3-0 we r d best in wrld crkt ritenow... bond is d best bolwer in teh wc evn tho he doesnt takke wkts whn there really impotant like of top ordr also jkb oram is gr8 env tho hes got shot selection of a ****** HEWAS GUNNA CUT OFF HIS FINGAR OMG CAN U GET MORE COMITMENT!!! and chk out craig mcmilans beard hes so tuff omg and rite now fleming is d best captan evr.

 

[Perm]

hay we r gr8 we beat austrlia 3-0 we r d best in wrld crkt ritenow... bond is d best bolwer in teh wc evn tho he doesnt takke wkts whn there really impotant like of top ordr also jkb oram is gr8 env tho hes got shot selection of a ****** HEWAS GUNNA CUT OFF HIS FINGAR OMG CAN U GET MORE COMITMENT!!! and chk out craig mcmilans beard hes so tuff omg and rite now fleming is d best captan evr.

English please.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

So we lost. Sri Lanka lost to South Africa and they're still playing for a semi-final berth. We ought to save this angst for when we lose to South Africa. If we lose to South Africa.

 

[Isolator]

Speaking for myself, this angst is not in response to their losing. I said it a while back - NZ are going to get hammered at some point of time. This happened yesterday, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens against SA and OZ too. In fact, I'd probably bet on them losing both matches if I could. There's been a huge amount of optimism and confidence in the media, amongst the fans - and maybe the team have bought into it too - after the CH series. This is all bull****. NZ's top order is WEAK. The lower order will not save you every time. Bond is NOT TAKING WICKETS UP FRONT. Franklin is ****. His batting shouldn't be the reason he's in the team. Jeetan Patel should get a lot more games.

I'm really not attacking the team's performance because I saw this coming a mile away. What I am irritated by is the totally unrealistic hype about their previous performances. They have many, many, many problems. They had them in the CH series, they had them in all the matches they've won in the WC. This team is not as good as you think it is.

edit: While I'm being prophetic, I'll also add that Ross Taylor is a good player and will probably do well in the remaing matches.

 

[Dasgupta]

This team is not as good as you think it is.

It's nowhere near as bad as you think it is either

 

[Athlai]

Franklin was very impressive with the bat again. If we bother keeping him in the side I think we should put him at 8. Vettori has been totally off form for quite a while.

Biggest positive I saw from the whole match was the last three overs of the second innings.

Piggo (who had been in since basically the start of the match) and Franklin managed to score very valuable runs.

The biggest let down was definitely the top order being dismissed cheaply, and then everytime Styris looked to be upping the tempo he would lose his partner. Oram and Franklin were the only other two who did well with the bat, (Fulton did okay too not as well I feel). But even with those performances, the fact that the rest of the team hit next to nothing just shows how well Styris played to get his century.

Fleming you've been a very naughty boy.

 

[el grapadura]

It's nowhere near as bad as you think it is either

Agreed. Also, I don't think that anyone here's overestimated our abilities - I think pretty much any NZ fan knows that we have a suspect top-order, that our bowling, while diverse, isn't overly reliable once you go past Bond and Vettori (and Mills when he's healthy), and indeed, most of us know that we can't count on the lower order getting us to 250-260 after we're reduced to 80/4.
Having said that, we do have good players who also happen to be in good form, we have played good cricket lately, and yes, we can still make the semis, even if we lose the next two games. Personally, I'd rather lose a game to SL at the Super 8 stage than in the semis, or even the final. So maybe this morning's performance was just a part of the master plan? Lull the Lankans into a false sense of security that they have us covered?

 

[Isolator]

It's nowhere near as bad as you think it is either

I don't think they're bad. But I don't think they're good enough to win the WC without a massive amount of luck.

 

[el grapadura]

I don't think they're bad. But I don't think they're good enough to win the WC without a massive amount of luck.

How would you define "massive amount of luck"? How do you define luck in sport in general?

 

[Isolator]

Biggest positive I saw from the whole match was the last three overs of the second innings.

I don't see how this is a positive as such. I would call something a positive if it was a sign of a strength or area of improvement. This was just an isolated thing, I don't see what it has to do with the team in general.

Oram and Franklin were the only other two who did well with the bat

Oram needs to get his thinking sorted out. Quite a few of his recent dismissals have been due to brainless shots, when he's tried to hit out either before he's played himself in or before the match situation demands it.

 

[Dasgupta]

There were a lot of things that went very badly in this mornings game. Fleming's decision at the toss for a start was flabberglasting, some rubbish umpiring (both side I know), Gillespie and Franklin bowled an assortment of pork, mince & cheese, and steak & kidney and being 2 for bugger all to start on the back foot straight away, just to name a few. There are many areas that can be improved on. It was just a very bad day at the office. Hope it's just the one.