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Greatest Ever Test XI

oz_fan

International Regular
1st XI:
1. Hobbs
2. Gavaskar
3. Bradman
4. Lara
5. Tendulkar
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist
8. Imran Khan
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Warne
11. McGrath

2nd XI
1. Len Hutton
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Viv Richards
4. Weekes
5. Hammond
6. Andy Flower
7. Keith Miller
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Wasim Akram
10. Curtley Ambrose
11. Muralitharin
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Hobbs
Hayden
Bradman
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Khan
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

Hutton
Sutcliffe
Ponting
G Chappell
Tendulkar
Flower
Miller
Hadlee
Akram
Marshall
Murali
 
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Francis

State Vice-Captain
wonder what those who saw him bowl in Pakistan and West Indies thought...
Lillee had already proven himself on deader wickets so nobody cared. You can't judge him on one tour... every great bowler in history has one series or so where they took nearly no wickets or got cained. And as stated, Imran thought Lillee bowled well in Pakistan and even called him the bowler of his generation.
 

Ash_A55

U19 Captain
You can't judge him on one tour... every great bowler in history has one series or so where they took nearly no wickets or got cained.
Dosent that also apply to most cricketers? :laugh: Everybody has the odd dry patch. The best players (Lillee) come out of that bad spell quickest.
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
OK I already did my first XI...

1. Sir Jack Hobbs
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Sir Donald Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Sir Vivian Richards
6. Sir Garfield Sobers
7. Imran Khan
8. Adam Gilchrist
9. Shane Warne
10. Malcolm Marshall
11. Dennis Lillee

I needed to see that again so I could do my second XI...

This one will be harder...

1. Sir Leonard Hutton
He'd make my best technical XI as well. Most who played against him have said he had the perfect technique and he scored great runs against some of Australia's best attacks. I don't know if he ever played against Benaud and Davidson, but both rated him highly.

2. Barry Richards
This is by far my most controversial pick and someone will probably flame me for it. My reasoning is sound though. While he only played four tests, he played a lot of domestic cricket and in that domestic cricket he faced the likes of Lillee and Thompson and came up trumps. All who played against him said he was one fo the best they bowled to. I liked what Jeff Thompson said about him, that he was the hardest he faced and would be up there with Greg Chappell as the batsman of his generation. Another case where those who saw him never doubted his greatness. Wheather it's domestic or international, I don't care... if you've played the best and the best rate you highly you must be good. I will add though, that there isn't a depth of great openers in history.

3. George Headley
It was a toss up between him and Hammond and to be honest, I'm thinking I should have gone with Hammond. Headley is underrated, plain and simple. Two things people need to know about Headley. First and foremost, if he didn't come out of retirement years after he'd first left, his average would be nearly 70! As it was, he came back, was a shell of himself and his average went down to 60. Secondly, Don Bradman struggled on wet wickets, his one weakness. I take nothing away from Bradman who of course if the greatest ever, but had he played on more wet wickets, his average would be lower.
Headley played most of his matches on wet wickets where the rest of the team could hardly score. It's no wonder he was called the "Black Bradman" as he actually wasn't that far from him barring a few poor pitches and his silly return after retirement. That shows how great he is, everybody else struggled when he was brilliant. Bill O'Rielly rated him the best international batsman he ever faced as well. Headley was tested from all sides from all bowlers who considered him the primary threat... one of those batsman who had his technique alanysed to death from all angles, and yet bowlers couldn't get him out. A forgotten great indeed.

4. Brian Lara
The best batting I have ever seen came from Lara. It was in 1999 against Australia when he completely carried the Windies batting. I honestly believe that at his best, only Bradman was better at batting. He doesn't make my first team because his average in inflated by huge scores, rather than consistency... and he did have a period of poor form - two of them in fact. But I don't want to dwell on that... Lara's a genius. I love Cricinfo for how they described Lara's action... there always was an aura of expectancy with his stance, the way he lofted his bat... you can tell when he'd in form and his natural gifts take over, destroying attacks. It doesn't suprise me the Aussies rate him the hardest batsman they ever bowled to... at his best I do think he was the second best batsman ever.

5. Graeme Pollock
One of those batsmen like Headley who was just analysed to death by his opposition. I can remember, as a kid, going to a cricket clinic... and I actually forgot the former international player who came to talk to us... but when asked who the hardest batsman he ever bowled to was, Graeme Pollock was his answer. He was also a bit like Viv in that he relied heavily on his great eye, but it was so good that he picked the line and length so quickly that he was on the board very quickly. Bradman said Pollock was the best left hander he ever saw bat... wasn't Gary Sobers left handed? And Lara? That's high praise from Bradman. Despite playing few Tests, he was analysed to death, and rarely beaten.

6. Keith Miller
After Sobers and Khan, I rate Miller the third best all-rounder ever. What makes him so is that he was more rounded as an all-rounder than say Hadlee, who was more of a bowler. The thing about ranking all-rounders if you can't look at their batting averages and bowling averages and compare them. You need to be able to gauge their collective impact on a game. Hadlee could take a fiver and make 20 runs... Miller could take three wickets and make a century... if that were the scenario I'd take Miller. Miller was the definitive 50s player and you can't trade on his overall contribution. Ian Botham was the same. Beefy is another rounded all-rounder who was always better than his stats. His collective impact meant he was better than most. Miller gets the nod over him as well. Only sad thing about Miller is he could have been greater...

7. Allan Knott
This talk about Flower is silly if you ask me. His keeping was terrible! I already said Gilchrist is on a level of his own in doing both astoundingly well. But if you can't have both, then you need to a keeper or else the runs leaked will be immense. Knott had competition in Healey and Marsh - two great keepers. But Knott strikes me as the definitive dedicated glove man. He's completely forgotten by all people and I'm sure many wont like him in my team.

8. Sir Richard Hadlee
Sir Richard needs no explanation really. With Marshall and Lillee in my first team, Hadlee's has no great competition. McGrath maybe was better than him in Tests... I don't know. I don't like it when people call him an all-rounder... I always thought he was mroe of a bowler who could hit the odd good innings... ah well.

9. Wasim Akram
HEY! Wasim made it. I picked McGrath before I picked Wasim and gave my explanation on why below. But I want Wasim in... he's the most exciting fast bowler of all time. Sometimes you didn't think Wasim needed a right line and legnth he made so much going for him. He could suprise you with a sudden bouncer, made hard to pick by an arm action difficult to pick. He could swing the ball both ways and did, sometimes making it seam the other way after it swung one way. He was the personification of a dangerous bowler able to hurt you in every way and it made him more exciting than anybody else. I rate his two great world cup dismissals in 1992 against England the two best fast bowling deliveries I have ever seen.

10. Glenn McGrath
It was a bit of a toss up between him and Akram. Akram gets my one-day nod, but I think accuracy and consistency are more important in Tests than fire and pace. Not to say Akram wasn't accurate and brilliant, but McGrath was something else in terms of accuracy.

11. Muttiah Muralitharan
Needs no explanation does he?


There feels like there isn't enough batting in this side to be honest... but I did my best. My third XI comes up soon.
 
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Francis

State Vice-Captain
My first XI...

1. Sir Jack Hobbs
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Sir Donald Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Sir Vivian Richards
6. Sir Garfield Sobers
7. Imran Khan
8. Adam Gilchrist
9. Shane Warne
10. Malcolm Marshall
11. Dennis Lillee

My second XI...

1. Sir Leonard Hutton
2. Barry Richards
3. George Headley
4. Brian Lara
5. Greg Chappell
6. Keith Miller
7. Allan Knott
8. Sir Richard Hadlee
9. Wasim Akram
10. Glenn McGrath
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

My third and most likely final XI...

1. Herbert Sutcliffe
Basically there's aren't a lot of established openers to choose from so I went with Herbert. I think there's been plenty of batsmen greater than him in cricket's history.

2. Arthur Morris
Like I said, there aren't a lot of great established openers in history, so I'm picking openers like Morris... Morris probably isn't one of the 40 best batsmen to have played the game but oh well...

3. Wally Hammond
It's a habbit in most sports, that no matter how amateur the era is, you'll always find a golden oldie to call a great. In tennis it's Bill Tilden, and rugby maybe it's Bennie Osler... in cricket the names are often Hobbs, Bradman etc... the sad thing is, if Bradman never existed, Hammond would be spoken in those terms. Ian Chappell said it best... losing to Bradman so much must have been demoralising... yet Hammond had no trouble making massive scores that would have gotten high praise, if only they weren't overshadowed by Bradman. It's only Bradman, any other batsman in history and Hammond would have taken England home to victory time and time again. In some circles in England he's spoken in the same terms as Jack Hobbs as well. And of course Wally played in an era of great Aussie bowlers as well.

4. Greg Chappell
The batsman of the 70s basically. I loved the way he took apart Hadlee in 1984 on the lushest of wickets for seam bowling. A safe pick for the most graceful and elligant batsman ever if you ask me... a great eye once he got in and always very correct. I don't know if Chappell gets his just due in the Australian cricket heirachy... I still rate him greater than Steve Waugh, Allan Border, Ricky Ponting and Niel Harvey. Australia's second best batsman ever IMO.

5. Steve Waugh
The greatest compliment I can pay Steve Waugh is that there was a period in the 90s, a period that, if you blinked, you would have missed, where he was ranked the best batsman in the world by some. And it's actually a higher compliment than you can pay someone today because Waugh did it in the era of Lara and Tendulkar. That's how you can remember Waugh - he's not as great as Lara or Tendulkar, but at his best he was spoken of in their league. Waugh's also a legend because of how he crafted tough innings against the hardest opposition. I've seen him play the Ambrose's, Walsh's, Akram', Younis's, the Donald's, the Pollock's etc... each time he made a century it was a victory of toughness. I especially liked the way he played Donald. Donald knew Waugh rarely, if ever, played the pull shot as it was his weakness, yet Waugh never gave in his Donald's bouncers... he always ducked them and was patient in his innings. He had limitations, but his mental toughness meant they never hurt him.

6. Ian Botham
Beefy is far greater than people know. I always used the Andrew Flintoff analogy that in the 2005 Ashes when he was awesome, what was more important was "when" he got wickets and runs. In the second Test, England were around 230 in front and then he made a delightful 10th wicket partnership with Simon Jones - England win by two runs and it was that partnership that did it. It was the same with wickets - he took them at vital times. It's exactly the same with Botham, even if he took wickets partly on personallity and aura, he took wickets and made runs when they were most vital and hence impacted games in a way that he stats don't show. It's sad really. The only knock on Beefy is that he didn't perform against the West Indies... however, he is one fo the few players you can hear being talked about in hushed tones, should you talk to an Aussie cricket fan.

7. Kapil Dev
I think I've underrated Dev in the past. To take 400 wickets when he played on so many unreceptive pitches is impressive. All rounders are like leprechauns (sp) and they change games in ways stats don't show properly. Dev rounds off the big six all-rounders to make my three teams. While I think he was the least of the six, maybe it wasn't by much.

8. Rod Marsh
I don't think Marsh is one of the 100 best cricketers ever. I do, however, think it's better to have a keeper than a batsman behind the stumps. I also think Marsh was the best keeper behind the stumps of all-time. Look at some of his catches off Thompson's bowling! Absolutely stunning catches... I don't think any keeper ever had it harder. There's a West Indian wicket-keeper I'm forgetting though... when I remember his name Marsh might not be a safe pick.

9. Curtley Ambrose
There were maybe three of four more other players who could have taken this spot, but Curtley was a safe pick I can feel confident in. He was the best bowler in the world for a while in the early 90s, and most batsman rated him their worst nightmare. I think he's underrated for his accuracy. Of course with his height and pace he could intimidate batsman and confuse them with his bounce, but Ambrose was deadley accurate and impossible on the best wickets.

10. Fred Trueman
Firery Fred. I don't think I have to justify a lot about Fred Trueman. He was the best bowler of his era.

11. Tiger O'Rielly
I honestly think he's a clear choice for the third best spinner ever. Always remember that old timers who played the game have seen it evolve as well and can see if the quality of opposition has gotten better. Bradman said at his funeral he was the best he ever faced... perhaps this was done to the occasion... Bradman soberly said in an interview Lillee was the best fast bowler he'd seen. But I think the thing to always remember with Bill O'Rielly is when England made a massive score around 900, and all the Aussie bowlers were getting killed... he was still only going for three an over. You see it with Hammond, O'Rielly, Headley etc when you look back... they were always a mile ahead of the competition when things got tough.
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
So my three XI's are:

My first XI...

1. Sir Jack Hobbs
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Sir Donald Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Sir Vivian Richards
6. Sir Garfield Sobers
7. Imran Khan
8. Adam Gilchrist
9. Shane Warne
10. Malcolm Marshall
11. Dennis Lillee

My second XI...

1. Sir Leonard Hutton
2. Barry Richards
3. George Headley
4. Brian Lara
5. Greg Chappell
6. Keith Miller
7. Allan Knott
8. Sir Richard Hadlee
9. Wasim Akram
10. Glenn McGrath
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

My third XI...

1. Herbert Sutcliffe
2. Arthur Morris
3. Wally Hammond
4. Greg Chappell
5. Steve Waugh
6. Ian Botham
7. Kapil Dev
8. Rod Marsh
9. Curtley Ambrose
10. Fred Trueman
11. Tiger O'Rielly
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Nice lists - its cool how people can have well thought out, sound reasons for their inclusions, and come up with significant differences, and basically we can't prove who's right or wrong. Its the joy of this kind of discussion.

You're right about Hammond - absolute champ, and like Headley and unlike Bradman or Ponsford, a master on wet pitches. Descriptions of his style make him sound (to me at least) like someone with Greg Chappell's style and Inzi's presence and power in one package. Add to that he was a more than useful part-time seamer and he's an awesome player.

Since you've gone to a third XI, mine would be:
1. Herb Sutcliffe
2. Barry Richards
3. Brian Lara
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Clyde Walcott/W.G. Grace
6. Keith Miller
7. Alan Knott
8. Fred Trueman
9. Joel Garner
10. Glenn McGrath
11. Bill O'Reilly

Obviously a bit more fluid than the first two. There are several bowlers who could be in instead of McGrath and Garner, and I've named both Grace and Walcott at 5 as that spot would depend on how much I was willing to use my imagination in 'adjusting' Grace to today's game. Can't believe GS Chappell and Botham couldn't find a spot in my top three teams, nor Ponsford, but it gets hard...
 
My Alltime XI:

Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Donald Bradman
Brian Lara
+Andy Flower
Vivian Richards
*Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan

My 2nd XI:
Leonard Hutton
Herbert Sutcliffe
Wally Hammond
Sachin Tendulkar
*Gary Sobers
Ian Botham
+Adam Gilchrist
Malcom Marshall
Bill O'Reilly
Jim Laker
Glenn McGrath
 
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silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
It doesn't prove anything. He opened bowling for WI and also bowled spin when needed. There was a period where he averaged 60+ with the bat and something like 26 with the ball. You are penalizing him because he bowled spin when his team needed (two types), and did whatever he could just to win. And his stats suffered because of it. Plus he was such a fantastic fielder.
 
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shortpitched713

International Captain
It doesn't prove anything. He opened bowling for WI and also bowled spin when needed. There was a period where he averaged 60+ with the bat and something like 26 with the ball. You are penalizing him because he bowled spin when his team needed (two types), and did whatever he could just to win. And his stats suffered because of it. Plus he was such a fantastic fielder.
Hes definitely not a part timer, but as far as bowling goes it doesn't seem he was the most proficient. Sure he bowled some spin, but players like Qadir have been slagged for having an average lower than his 34 and bowling only spin.

And I don't see why "doing whatever he could just to wim" should hurt his stats. If you don't feel that you are likely to take a wicket then you simply shouldn't bowl yourself.
 
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oz_fan

International Regular
1st XI:
1. Hobbs
2. Gavaskar
3. Bradman
4. Lara
5. Tendulkar
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist
8. Imran Khan
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Warne
11. McGrath

2nd XI
1. Len Hutton
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Viv Richards
4. Weekes
5. Hammond
6. Andy Flower
7. Keith Miller
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Wasim Akram
10. Curtley Ambrose
11. Muralitharin
Here's my 3rd XI:
1. Geoff Boycott
2. Arthur Morris
3. George Headley
4. Greg Chappell
5. Graeme Pollock
6. Les Ames
7. Ian Botham
8. Aubrey Faulkner/Shaun Pollock
9. Fred Trueman
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Allan Donald
 

Slifer

International Captain
Thats because I don't think Gary Sobers was an allrounder(he was a part-time bowler).And even as a batsman,he was not better than Brian Lara(difference between the two is very minute though) & Vivian Richards.
Ok he was atleast equal to lara/viv as a batsman and better than both at fielidng (debatable) and a far better bowlerand u still left him out for those 2?
 

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