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Matthew Hayden- I mean come on, seriously

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I really can't be bothered to look up the statistics, but I bet since he's returned to the test team Hayden's averaged nigh-on 55 in tests. Even allowing for the decline in the quality of bowling & the general deadness of the tracks in this decade I'd say that qualifies as world-class. You, clearly, do not. No need to labour your point by replying to this.
He's averaged round about 57 from 2001\02 onwards, after being exposed in England and everywhere else except India beforehand.

As I say - that proves he's World-class at one thing - the ability to bash mostly very poor bowling. No amount of bashing poor bowling can prove his adeptness against higher-quality stuff.
I can think of one left hander who is infinitely more susceptible to the ball that comes back into him: your own beloved Mr Smith. He's far more bottom handed than Hayden so tends to play across the line more. On our last tour Hoggard had his number so much he went & hid in the middle order. Yet he's still managed to average in the high 40s.
Dress it up as much as you want ("hid" - honestly 8-)) - Smith is no more or less susceptible to the inswinger than Hayden. As I did mention in an earlier post.
As for Richardson having a similar career to Hayden. Well, in what way? Aside from being left-handed openers who breathe oxygen I can't think of much else they have in common. Rigor was that archetypal stone-waller; I don't think that's an accusation that's levelled at Hayden too often.
He too was a flat-track bully who couldn't play the ball that moved into him. Aside from that they were very different, obviously, but they had that crucial factor in common.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Dress it up as much as you want ("hid" - honestly 8-)) - Smith is no more or less susceptible to the inswinger than Hayden. As I did mention in an earlier post.
What would you call it then? Leading from the middle? "After you, chaps..." FFS... 8-)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
How about allowing ABdeV to open? Given that ABdeV is an opener and is pretty well wasted in the middle?

Is it coincidence that ABdeV managed the match double of 90 and century at that point?

Also - is it not basic tactical common-sense to try and get away from something that's causing you problems? Only someone pre-prejudiced who hated his guts could envisage it as "hiding".
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
Why and when did you change your mind?
The Oval ton in '05 went a long way towards doing it - I didn't think he had anywhere near the mental game to come through a series like he'd had and grit out an innings like that. Not usually a characteristic that goes hand in hand with a flat-track bully.

Until that innings, I was pretty much assuming his international career was close to over, and when he got dropped from the ODI side I didn't see him making much of a comeback. However, in certain circumstances a man's record has to be allowed to speak for itself, and I really have no grounds on which to discount his phenomenal international record any more.

He's produced some astounding innings in recent months - turns out that not only is he a fantastic opener in ODI cricket, he's also a fantastic late-overs player. Massive asset to his side.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That has to be the most bizarre collection of totally unrelated smileys I've ever seen... :huh:
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
Bah, I'm rubbish with the search function. Just searched for the phrase "fair enough" in all your posts, but wasn't sure if it was counting both words together when I but speech marks around it - when I left them out, it gave me a whole host of posts with both words in, but in random combinations.

Was fairly certain you wouldn't have used 'noof' before, either way. :p
 

Burgey

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No, not underrated- heavily, heavily overrated.
In my opinion, Hayden is the most overrated cricketer ever-
C'mon. He canes all the blokes everyone on here worships. He's a good player of spin (India 2001) and has scored runs everywhere except England in 05 when he was hopelessly out of form.

Depends what you use to clas**** over-rated I suppose, but if it's performing against the best team of the era you play in, then the reputations of Waqar and Inzy to name but two would tak a horrible battering - their records when they came here are/ were abysmal.

It's always "Today's blokes are meh, they were better back in the 80s & 90s". Well, I'd rather walk from here to Perth to watch Hayden walk down the deck to a quick in the 1st session of a test match and deposit him 15 rows back than stroll across the road to snore through 65 overs a day of boring fast stuff, which is what the 80s was all about. How effective do you reckon those attacks would have been had they had to bowl 90 overs a day? I've wondered for a while whether the Windies demise as number 1 in the world coincided with the developments in the game post the requirement to lift over rates.

There were some damn fine bowlers in the 80s and 90s, no one can deny that. But imo Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Hayden, Dravid, Sangakara, Sehwag (on his day), Kallis, Hussey et al would do pretty damn well against attacks of most eras, largely because they take fast bowling on like no one ever has before. We always ask how these blokes would do against sustained pace in the form of an 80s or 90s Windies attack, but how would the Windies react when they bowled short to Ponting or Tendy or The Prince and then had to go and get another ball out of the box, all while sending down 90 overs a day in the heat? Similarly, the Windies batting line up in the 80s was considered week against spin in an era where there weren't the quality spinners which there are now. How would that line up have gone vs Murali, Warne, Harbajahan, Kumble, Saqlain (at his best), Vettori, Monty? Would be an interesting match-up.

Then again, Sir Viv was on the tele commentating last night, and I was wondering how far he would have hit the ball with a bat like Hayden uses - :-O

Hayden's not a classical player, but he's a damned good one imo. His game and technique are products of the era which he plays in. If he played in an era where the game was different, he'd most likely adapt, because very good/ great players do that. To compare his career pre-99 compared with post-99, is a bit unfair - he was in and out of the side when an established player was injured, for the most part. And, like everyone, he's got to know his game better as he's got on in years. One may wonder how Hussey would have gone if he were pitched in as a pup rather than spending years developing and learning his game - we just dont know but I bet he's a better player now than when he was 23-26 years old.
 
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Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Bah, I'm rubbish with the search function. Just searched for the phrase "fair enough" in all your posts, but wasn't sure if it was counting both words together when I but speech marks around it - when I left them out, it gave me a whole host of posts with both words in, but in random combinations.

Was fairly certain you wouldn't have used 'noof' before, either way. :p
He's used "noof" 14 times actually, every time following the word "fair."
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bah, I'm rubbish with the search function. Just searched for the phrase "fair enough" in all your posts, but wasn't sure if it was counting both words together when I but speech marks around it - when I left them out, it gave me a whole host of posts with both words in, but in random combinations.

Was fairly certain you wouldn't have used 'noof' before, either way. :p
I have. :p

Not often, tho - treasure it for the rest of your life. ;)

I think I probably say "fair noof" more often than I say "fair enough".
 

C_C

International Captain
. He canes all the blokes everyone on here worships
Like who ?

Didnt know these so-called half-baked opening bowlers are 'worshipped' here.

except England in 05 when he was hopelessly out of form.
When England happened to assemble a good fast pace attack. Surprise Surprise.
Let me tell you when he was 'hopelessly out of form' too - pretty much throughout the 90s. His form just happened to come roaring back when the pitches became easier than hookers to score on and good quality fast bowlers all decieded to retire en mass.
Good timing on Haydos' part i gotto say!

Well, I'd rather walk from here to Perth to watch Hayden walk down the deck to a quick in the 1st session of a test match and deposit him 15 rows back than stroll across the road to snore through 65 overs a day of boring fast stuff, which is what the 80s was all about.

The point is, if this were the 80s or 90s and you walked from 'here'(wherever here is) to Perth to watch Hayden walk down the deck to Ambrose/Wasim/Waqar/Walsh/Marshall/Garner/Holding/Imran/Waqar/Wasim/Hadlee etc, you'd have either seen Hayden's blood on the pitch or Hayden walking back to the pavillion really really soon. Walking down the pitch is just about the most taunting thing a batsman can do to a fast bowler. And if the fast bowlers happen to be any of the abovementioned name and my backfoot play as weak as Hayden, i'd be making sure my will is in order before i tried walking down the pitch to those bowlers. And i mean it seriously.

I've wondered for a while whether the Windies demise as number 1 in the world coincided with the developments in the game post the requirement to lift over rates.
No.
You wondered wrong.

largely because they take fast bowling on like no one ever has before.
I wont comment on Lara or Tendulkar- because they've proven it over and over again against quality bowlers on much harder surfaces. But the likes of Sehwag, Ponting, Hayden, Kallis, Dravid, etc- ie, all those who happened to find form when pitches flattened out and good bowling died, would suffer majorly against good fast bowling. Dravid the least and Hayden the most in my opinion from that group.

Trust me, if Hayden is taking on a bunch of nobodys of today, those nobodys would've been murdered by Gavaskar, Richards, Miandad, Chappell and dozen others.

but how would the Windies react when they bowled short to Ponting or Tendy or The Prince and then had to go and get another ball out of the box, all while sending down 90 overs a day in the heat?
Look- i don't care if its Bradman, Tendulkar or Lara, let alone lesser bats like Ponting - the # of games where the WI bowlers of the 80s/90s would've to go get another ball from the box would be far rarer than the # of games the batsmen would've returned trembling.
The fearsome-foursome was an indominatable attack. Best you could hope for is survival. But so far, i've never seen anyone dominate 4 bowlers (more than once or twice in their entire careers)who are accurate to the inch, bowl above 90mph and/or routinely bowl balls at good length that shoots for your throat.

The *only* way to dominate bowling like that is to utterly master one shot : the hook. And even Mohinder Amarnath- who was 10 times the player of that shot than Tendulkar,Lara or Ponting are, spat blood a few times against the fearsome foursome.


His game and technique are products of the era which he plays in
No. His game and technique are substandard for an opener. Very very substandard. He was a product of the era he came in- a mediocre product at that- then brought back when it became easy money to bat.
 
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_Ed_

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He too was a flat-track bully who couldn't play the ball that moved into him. Aside from that they were very different, obviously, but they had that crucial factor in common.
But Richardson still managed to average 47.76 in NZ, and played on a number of very much bowler-friendly pitches during that time.

This innings comes to mind.
 

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