Where does Ricky Ponting rank?

[Johnners]

Bingo.

The price is riiiiiiight

 

[Jono]

I disagree - he must lose points for his lack of buttons!

Indeed. He'd only get away with the no button look if his hands were in his pockets, but evidently they are behind his back.

Where Ponting is lacking however is the lack of team/national colours on his tie. You couldn't tell he was Australian from his attire.

 

[Johnners]

Cricket Australia clothing is all Blue & Green, so if Ponting loses points, Lara probably should as well

 

[Jono]

I'm not following you there Clapo. He's wearing WI colours is he not?

 

[PY]

I actually find this coversation more interesting than what went before.

Well done guys.

 

[pasag]

Haha, oh dear, Lions supporters.

 

[Craig]

He is the best in the world, as of now, IMO.


All time, I would rate him below the Sachin/Lara level. And plz, for the last time, dont try to explain away each and everyone of his failures in India. He played like what 10 tests spread over 8 or 9 years and he still averages tailenderesque. This is just like how Warne is always injured when he is taken apart.


But one thing about him, though. He just looks very complete as a player, given the standard of bowling today. He just doesn't seem to have any major weakness apart from the fact that he falls over when he is new to the crease. I may well be wrong here, but I think if he can maintain his fitness (and he is among the fittest in the world), I think he can break almost all batting records in tests and give a shot for the same in ODIs. But a lot depends on how he copes with the added batting pressure and the loss of McWarne. With Gilchrist and Hayden also being closer to the end rather than the start of their careers, remains to be seen how that kind of pressure affects him.


Also, I guess, with time, his reflexes will slow down, just like it did with Lara and Tendulkar and I think his falling over weakness will get accentuated over the years, IF quality bowlers keep coming through and dont get injured and go out.

Why not?

IMO they are perfectly valid reasons, you can't hold it against him in the Mumbai Test in 2004 when that was the dodgiest pitch I have ever seen in India and when he missed the first three due to a broken finger.

I've a lot of respect for you as a poster even if we don't always agree, but I don't see why I can't bring up a perfectly valid point. It's not as though I'm saying, how he got out, but point out that it was a very good ball etc. or the umpiring was poor.

 

[honestbharani]

Why not?

IMO they are perfectly valid reasons, you can't hold it against him in the Mumbai Test in 2004 when that was the dodgiest pitch I have ever seen in India and when he missed the first three due to a broken finger.

I've a lot of respect for you as a poster even if we don't always agree, but I don't see why I can't bring up a perfectly valid point. It's not as though I'm saying, how he got out, but point out that it was a very good ball etc. or the umpiring was poor.

I dont have a problem giving you the Mumbai test, but honestly, when you try to explain each and every one of his failure in INdia, that is when it gets a little annoying.

He has had 3 tests in 98 as well, he didn't do much then either. And it is not like he didn't know how to score runs. He did ok in the ODI series that followed. I think he has had a problem there, esp. against finger spinners. End of story. All the stuff that you have said happen to a lot of players and they dont have such a bad record in any one country inspite of having played 8 tests spread over 8 years.


If he plays in India again, I do expect him to better his average but the fact is for a good part of his career, he had a problem in these conditions and I think that deserves to be held against him when trying to rank him against some of the other all time greats.

 

[Johnners]

Indeed. He'd only get away with the no button look if his hands were in his pockets, but evidently they are behind his back.

Where Ponting is lacking however is the lack of team/national colours on his tie. You couldn't tell he was Australian from his attire.

Cricket Australia clothing is all Blue & Green, so if Ponting loses points, Lara probably should as well

I'm not following you there Clapo. He's wearing WI colours is he not?

Should've probably mentioned i was talking about Ponting & Lara's ties.

 

[Craig]

I dont have a problem giving you the Mumbai test, but honestly, when you try to explain each and every one of his failure in INdia, that is when it gets a little annoying.

He has had 3 tests in 98 as well, he didn't do much then either. And it is not like he didn't know how to score runs. He did ok in the ODI series that followed. I think he has had a problem there, esp. against finger spinners. End of story. All the stuff that you have said happen to a lot of players and they dont have such a bad record in any one country inspite of having played 8 tests spread over 8 years.


If he plays in India again, I do expect him to better his average but the fact is for a good part of his career, he had a problem in these conditions and I think that deserves to be held against him when trying to rank him against some of the other all time greats.

Fair enough, although you can say that against other posters as well.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I think he has had a problem there, esp. against finger spinners. End of story.

I agree, but the key word is "had". Ponting of today is absolutely nothing like the player he was in 2001 or 1998. He was a good but flawed batsman at that point, and today he's the best batsman in the world by a reasonable margin, and a much improved player of spin. It's nothing more than misfortune that he hasn't had the chance to correct his record there in the last 6 years, and I think it's extremely unlikely that he wouldn't. Obviously you can't say its impossible, as anyone can have a bad trot, but certainly there's no reason to bet against him.

If he gets the chance to improve his record there and doesn't, there's no problem with considering it a major blemish on his record IMO. If he doesn't, I don't think you really can.

 

[Pratters]

Sigh. Some how, I knew how this thread would go into focussing on Ponting's test record in India. Not for the first time it has happened.

Ponting's poor record in India is not much of a problem for me. Almost all players will have a statistical anomoly (appropriate word here which some one used earlier).

Ponting is going well right now and it will be very interesting to see how his career progresses in the next few years and what we can make of his career once it is over.

 

[marc71178]

Indeed. He'd only get away with the no button look if his hands were in his pockets, but evidently they are behind his back.

Where Ponting is lacking however is the lack of team/national colours on his tie. You couldn't tell he was Australian from his attire.

Agreed - he needed a hat with corks on...

 

[marc71178]

Ponting's poor record in India is not much of a problem for me. Almost all players will have a statistical anomoly (appropriate word here which some one used earlier).

If it were one series early in his career then it could possibly be disregarded, but the facts are that he's been over on what, 4 trips now, and still has a woeful average.

He's probably got 1 trip left when he's still at the peak of his powers - he has to perform then IMO.

 

[Pratters]

If it were one series early in his career then it could possibly be disregarded, but the facts are that he's been over on what, 4 trips now, and still has a woeful average.

He's probably got 1 trip left when he's still at the peak of his powers - he has to perform then IMO.

I do know it is 4 trips but those 4 trips include 2 full series in 98 and '01 and one off tests in 96 and 2004 (on a pitch not friendly to batsmen). He does have very good average in Sri Lanka and good odi record in India and versus India in India. So I do not think it failures in India is that big an issue and shouldn't be a reason for people to think lesser of Ponting as a batsman (whoever does) given how Ponting's career has progressed.

If he fails again in India, yes, it will be worth pondering. However, if he doesn't play another test in India, it will not be some thing I will hold against Ponting.

I see where you are coming from though as his test average is (in)famously very low in India in the 8 tests he has played there. I guess we differ on this.

 

[GIMH]

Agreed - he needed a hat with corks on...

 

[honestbharani]

I agree, but the key word is "had". Ponting of today is absolutely nothing like the player he was in 2001 or 1998. He was a good but flawed batsman at that point, and today he's the best batsman in the world by a reasonable margin, and a much improved player of spin. It's nothing more than misfortune that he hasn't had the chance to correct his record there in the last 6 years, and I think it's extremely unlikely that he wouldn't. Obviously you can't say its impossible, as anyone can have a bad trot, but certainly there's no reason to bet against him.

If he gets the chance to improve his record there and doesn't, there's no problem with considering it a major blemish on his record IMO. If he doesn't, I don't think you really can.

You see, Sean, I am not saying that Ponting TODAY will have a problem in India. But as I said, when you are rating him against other all time greats, the fact that he had a problem in India inspite of having had 8 tests over 8 years there must be held against him. A statistical anamoly would be Lara in India, played only one tour of 3 tests in 94 here, I think.


As I have said earlier in this thread, I don't think we can generalize anything about his lack of success in India. Because he has had success against quality spinners at other places. Just that in those conditions, he has struggled a bit. Overall, I rate him pretty high as a batter, perhaps just a small rung below Sachin/Lara. Thats about it.

 

[Pratters]

You see, Sean, I am not saying that Ponting TODAY will have a problem in India. But as I said, when you are rating him against other all time greats, the fact that he had a problem in India inspite of having had 8 tests over 8 years there must be held against him.

. Because he has had success against quality spinners at other places.

If you think Ponting TODAY will not have problems in India, given also, as you mention, that he has shown himself capable against spinners, don't see why the tests in India should be that much of a problem. After all, even some one like Steve Waugh had problems against bouncers in his career before but he sorted that out.

If you believe he will/might still have a problem in India, there is a point. Else, there isn't according to me.

 

[honestbharani]

If you think Ponting TODAY will not have problems in India, given also, as you mention, that he has shown himself capable against spinners, don't see why the tests in India should be that much of a problem. After all, even some one like Steve Waugh had problems against bouncers in his career before but he sorted that out.

If you believe he will/might still have a problem in India, there is a point. Else, there isn't according to me.

spinners aren't the only thing unique about INdia in India, Pratyush. The wickets, the balls etc. are also different. That's why having a good record is most, if not all, cricket playing countries is considered a pre requisite while rating batsmen, right?

 

[Pratters]

spinners aren't the only thing unique about INdia in India, Pratyush. The wickets, the balls etc. are also different. That's why having a good record is most, if not all, cricket playing countries is considered a pre requisite while rating batsmen, right?

Yes. But that wasn't the point of contention was your first statement:

You see, Sean, I am not saying that Ponting TODAY will have a problem in India .But as I said, when you are rating him against other all time greats, the fact that he had a problem in India inspite of having had 8 tests over 8 years there must be held against him.

So if Ponting plays in India again and performs well, I thought you would still hold the 8 tests against him which would be wrong.

As I said earlier, given his records in Lanka and in one dayers in India and versus India, I do not hold his failures in India too much against him (even though the above two are not perfect gaugers).

However, I do not have a huge problem with people holding Ponting's record in India against him like you might.