Salamuddin's All Time Test Match X1

[Richard]

Not totally sure about Hayden being typically a slow scorer!

True scoring quicker gives you a better chance of winning the match but honestly and truthfully, I don't believe by much. On a bowler-friendly pitch (spinner-friendly in this case) you're likely to have a result anyway - runs are runs.

I do feel that slower-scoring batsmen as-a-rule, not purely in this case, tend to get a raw deal. It's the same thing with IVA Richards - I think people think a bit higher of him because he was such a dominant player, while others were just as effective without the pace of scoring.

 

[honestbharani]

Not totally sure about Hayden being typically a slow scorer!

True scoring quicker gives you a better chance of winning the match but honestly and truthfully, I don't believe by much. On a bowler-friendly pitch (spinner-friendly in this case) you're likely to have a result anyway - runs are runs.

I do feel that slower-scoring batsmen as-a-rule, not purely in this case, tend to get a raw deal. It's the same thing with IVA Richards - I think people think a bit higher of him because he was such a dominant player, while others were just as effective without the pace of scoring.

I dont think I ever mentioned Hayden as a slow scorer. I was referring to Flower and Adams there.


And I do agree to an extent that slower players can be just as effective as quicker scorers. But the point is if a guy can score runs quickly and do it at an average of 50+ per innings, he has GOT to be special. Definitely more special than a guy who has the same average but cannot score as quickly. Being a quick scoring guy, to me, signifies a lot of natural ability and perhaps that is why these blokes are rated higher than the ones who score slower but are still averaging the same or maybe even more.

 

[Richard]

Plus, it is easy to tell which player the spinners fear more. As I said, with blokes like Hayden, Flower, Adams and even Sachin, there were areas where a spinner can bowl and KNOW that he wont be scored off that much and even have a chance of getting the batsman out.

I don't neccessarily feel that a quicker scorer is superior to a slower one. I just feel it's different. Like Union\League and Test\ODI.

Someone like Jacques Kallis and Rahul Dravid (to pick just about the only 2 examples from the current crop) are IMO every bit as talented as, for example, Ricky Ponting or Lara (respectively, that is - Dravid and Lara are IMO far superior to Ponting and Kallis). They're just different style players, whose talents manifest themselves in different ways. Same would be true of, for instance, Viv Richards and Sunil Gavaskar. Or Clive Lloyd and Dilip Vengsarkar\Gundappa Viswanath.

I often feel slower-scoring players get a raw deal.

 

[C_C]

We'r talking spin-play and no one brings up Sidhu or Azhar ?
Lara is the best player of spin today, i agree but he is just a tad better than Azhar, Sidhu,Tendulkar, Kallis, who are wee better than Flower and Hayden.

 

[Richard]

Don't know a thing about NSS but Azhar was obviously rather superb too.

And Kallis > Flower? Yer avin a laff.

 

[Swervy]

We'r talking spin-play and no one brings up Sidhu or Azhar ?
Lara is the best player of spin today, i agree but he is just a tad better than Azhar, Sidhu,Tendulkar, Kallis, who are wee better than Flower and Hayden.

I would almost have Flower right up there with Lara to be honest...almost!!!!

 

[Salamuddin]

Andrew Flower was a brilliant player of spin - I agree. Right up there with Tendy and Lara.

 

[Richard]

And Azharruddin, TBH.

Though I wonder if he counts for anything in some people's eyes given that he turned-out to be a match-fixer...

 

[silentstriker]

And Azharruddin, TBH.

Though I wonder if he counts for anything in some people's eyes given that he turned-out to be a match-fixer...

He does not.

I would probably go with Azhar at home if he wasn't such a rat bastard match fixing disgraceful traitor whore, but not sure who away.

 

[Richard]

Strong words indeed from the silent man...

 

[honestbharani]

I don't neccessarily feel that a quicker scorer is superior to a slower one. I just feel it's different. Like Union\League and Test\ODI.

Someone like Jacques Kallis and Rahul Dravid (to pick just about the only 2 examples from the current crop) are IMO every bit as talented as, for example, Ricky Ponting or Lara (respectively, that is - Dravid and Lara are IMO far superior to Ponting and Kallis). They're just different style players, whose talents manifest themselves in different ways. Same would be true of, for instance, Viv Richards and Sunil Gavaskar. Or Clive Lloyd and Dilip Vengsarkar\Gundappa Viswanath.

I often feel slower-scoring players get a raw deal.

it doesn't mean Hayden is a slow scorer. I just meant that there were areas where if the spinner bowled consistently he COULD be kept quiet. Hasn't happened all that much, though. But did happen in Chennai in 2004.


And I do think Sidhu was very good too, just like Azhar, but again, they all had at least one or two areas where the spinner could keep them quiet. They just never looked as complete as Lara. Could possibly be because they never played these strokes as they felt they could do enough damage with the other strokes, but one can only go by what one has seen.

To me, in my time of watching cricket, no one has looked as untroubled and yet, as dominating as Lara has over so many spinners in so many different conditions.

 

[bagapath]

And it's quite possible that I could beat that with...

Hutton (Leonard, not Richard)
Fredericks
Headley (George, not Ron or Dean)
Weekes (Everton, not Bam Bam)
Tendulkar of 1990-2002
Stephen Waugh of 1993-2001
Walcott (Clyde, not Theo)
Botham of 1977-1981
Hadlee (Richard, not Dayle or Dad)
Lindwall
Underwood if we were playing on uncovered wickets

IOW, there are a million all-time XIs you could pick that are about as good as each other.

and i can beat that with

herbet sutcliffe
victor trumper
ricky ponting (C)
denis compton
allan border
keith miller
adam gilchrist (WK)
michael holding
sid barnes
fred truman
wj oreilly

yup. you're right. there are hundreds of possible combinations that would make a brilliant all-time XI any day

 

[vic_orthdox]

I do feel that slower-scoring batsmen as-a-rule, not purely in this case, tend to get a raw deal. It's the same thing with IVA Richards - I think people think a bit higher of him because he was such a dominant player, while others were just as effective without the pace of scoring.

Players may have had the same basic output as Viv, but they weren't as effective. Its this "dominance" that separates their effectiveness in a lot of circumstances.

 

[Richard]

What about dominance makes it more effective? Runs are runs regardless of the attitude the batsman purveys when scoring them.