Greg Chappell - just how good do people think he was?

[Richard]

You only need to examine the no. of world-class medium pacers in the last 30 years for proof of this - there arent any

How about there mightn't have been any back then, either - no-one knows how fast bowlers were before 1998 and certainly no-one has a clue how fast they were in, say, the 1920s and 1930s.

 

[thierry henry]

In the 90s , you had Ambrose (all-time great), Walsh (one time test record holder but not generally not considered to be in class of Ambrose and earlier greats), Bishop (past 92, was a shadow of former self due to back injuries), and a support crew of the Benjamins, etc

Pre Bishops back injury, ie '92, they obviously has 3 very fine fast bowlers and as good as most combinations despite the lack of a quality 4th.

Other than that, you could draw 4 names out of the earlier generation's hat and they beat every combination of the 90s hands down

Honestly, you said you could pick out 4 guys with little or no international experience/credentials to their names, and they would be the best bowling attack of the last 30 years- better than Wasim/Waqar/Mushtaq, better than Pollock/Donald/De Villiers/Kallis/Klusener etc, better than Ambrose/Walsh/Bishop. You're entitled to your opinion, but this one is mere far fetched speculation.

 

[C_C]

Just from memory so maybe wrong, but I don't think Kalli played in the Packer matches, so for a couple of years he would have played against some very average teams/players.

Well by that Benchmark, Botham's career just went out of the window. He was never more than anything mediocre for bulk of his career and even the first few years of success he had came against Packer-depleted teams. But at the same time, Kalli had put himself in the top echelon before the packer series started.

I watched him a fair bit, and never thought him close to Viv or GSC or Gavaskar or Miandad for that matter. Still a fine player, but not one of the greats from his or any era for mine

Kalli for me was more rash than everyone in that group except Viv but more technically sound than any of the four.
One of *the* greatest players ever of spin and most dynamic against sustained pace bowling. He had more of a penchant than the rest named to perish playing a hook shot and holing out at fine leg but was superior to any of the four named when the ball was pitched up and allowed to swing. had the purest footwork in cricket IMO.

 

[Richard]

Mushtaq was average

Complete and absolute bull****, as demonstrated here.

 

[C_C]

Honestly, you said you could pick out 4 guys with little or no international experience/credentials to their names, and they would be the best bowling attack of the last 30 years- better than Wasim/Waqar/Mushtaq, better than Pollock/Donald/De Villiers/Kallis/Klusener etc, better than Ambrose/Walsh/Bishop. You're entitled to your opinion, but this one is mere far fetched speculation.

No, not really. WI could field 4 bowlers between 1975 and early 90s who could walk into any other team. No other team had that sort of bowling depth.

Marshall, Holding, Garner and Ambrose were as good as any fast bowler who's ever bowled, with Marshall and Ambrose regularly featuring in people's top 5 and all four in the top 10 ever.
That alone is more might than Pak/RSA/AUS could muster in the last 30 years.

Now add in the 'support crew' of Roberts, Croft, Bishop, Walsh, Clarke,Patterson, Daniel, Davis, etc. and its by lightyears, the best secondary bowling subset for any team in cricket's history. Hell, just 4 bowlers from the support crew of the Windies would easily be the best bowling unit today.

Clarke was as good as anyone today who's name isnt Glenn McGrath or Shaun Pollock. But he didn't get chances regularly enough to make much of a dent thanks to the WI awesome bowling depth.
In the early 80s, Holding commented that the Windies bowler's biggest fear was getting injured - for nomatter how good you are, the WI had enough depth and class players to muscle you out of the team if you'r out for a few years.

 

[Richard]

Richard, Richard, Richard

From 75-85, WI could call on Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft (the fiercest of the lot and whose career was terminated by back injury not form), Clarke (the quickest but a nut-case who threw a brick at a spectator), Daniel, Patrick Patterson (ask Mike Gatting for a reference), Winston Davis, Ezra Mosely (lightning but a chucker and a nut-case) etc

Any 4 combined were the mose awesome pace lineup in history (particularly when umlimited bouncers and no mimimum overs were in place) and made the 90s look like school boys

As for w/ks, 82 mph is 131 kph - so what you are saying is, quite frankly, bull****

The fact that you list Patterson, Davis and Moseley (who played 2 Tests) who were all decidedly average and omit to mention Tony Gray, Ian Bishop and Winston Benjamin who were far, far, FAR better doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about your knowledge of West Indian seamers.

No-one, EVER, could make Ambrose, Bishop and Walsh look like schoolboys. You're insane if you think they could.

 

[Sanz]

Err no. Kalli bolloxed up his shoulder in mid 1979. After which his career just died..

His career died because he went to play cricket in South Africa and not because of shoulder injury. Even after his injury Kallicharan went on to play County Cricket in england and as I said he was one of the most successful scorers for couple of seasons in early 80s, my this claimed is backed by the fact that he was also picked as the Wisden cricketer of the year 1983 for his success in English County Cricket.

 

[archie mac]

Well by that Benchmark, Botham's career just went out of the window. He was never more than anything mediocre for bulk of his career and even the first few years of success he had came against Packer-depleted teams. But at the same time, Kalli had put himself in the top echelon before the packer series started.



Kalli for me was more rash than everyone in that group except Viv but more technically sound than any of the four.
One of *the* greatest players ever of spin and most dynamic against sustained pace bowling. He had more of a penchant than the rest named to perish playing a hook shot and holing out at fine leg but was superior to any of the four named when the ball was pitched up and allowed to swing. had the purest footwork in cricket IMO.

Botham was at his peak after WSC 1980-1984, not sure what that had to do with Kalli, except he(Kalli) faced some lesser standard bowling for a couple of years.

Rash yes, not tech better then GSC or Gavaskar, hit the ball hard for a little fellow, enjoyed watching him, and a great sport (don't tell Tony Greig) I remember him being caught & bowled by Botham off a full blooded drive, and clapping the effort as he departed the field of play.

Still not a great though C_C and I have never read of him as such?

 

[Richard]

In the 90s , you had Ambrose (all-time great), Walsh (one time test record holder but not generally not considered to be in class of Ambrose and earlier greats), Bishop (past 92, was a shadow of former self due to back injuries), and a support crew of the Benjamins, etc

Pre Bishops back injury, ie '92, they obviously has 3 very fine fast bowlers and as good as most combinations despite the lack of a quality 4th.

Other than that, you could draw 4 names out of the earlier generation's hat and they beat every combination of the 90s hands down

Bishop's injuries did not stop him coming back every bit as good as ever and only in his last few games did he stop performing sensationally.

 

[C_C]

His career died because he went to play cricket in South Africa and not because of shoulder injury.

False. His career died after his injury in 79. He went to South Africa in 85/86, long after his career had already died.

Even after his injury Kallicharan went on to play County Cricket in england and as I said he was one of the most successful scorers for couple of seasons in early 80s, my this claimed is backed by the fact that he was also picked as the Wisden cricketer of the year 1983 for his success in English County Cricket.

And that is only a testament to Kalli's brilliant talent. Even with his injuries and struggles in international cricket, Tendulkar still scored bucketloads when he played domestic cricket in India during this period.

 

[C_C]

Botham was at his peak after WSC 1980-1984, not sure what that had to do with Kalli, except he(Kalli) faced some lesser standard bowling for a couple of years.

Botham the bowler went to crap after 1981. WSC finished after 1979. 77-81 was the peak of Botham's bowling career, most of which came against WSC depleted teams before 1980.

 

[social]

Complete and absolute bull****, as demonstrated here.

And ......

All youre demonstrating was that he had a decidedly worse test record than MacGill, a bowler, whom if I'm not mistaken, you dont rate at all

 

[social]

Honestly, you said you could pick out 4 guys with little or no international experience/credentials to their names, and they would be the best bowling attack of the last 30 years- better than Wasim/Waqar/Mushtaq, better than Pollock/Donald/De Villiers/Kallis/Klusener etc, better than Ambrose/Walsh/Bishop. You're entitled to your opinion, but this one is mere far fetched speculation.

Talking about WI in the 90s

 

[archie mac]

Botham the bowler went to crap after 1981. WSC finished after 1979. 77-81 was the peak of Botham's bowling career, most of which came against WSC depleted teams before 1980.

Yes you are right my mistake; at his peak 77-81, but he really only played Aust without their Packer players during the 1978-79 series, the Windies in 1980 would have had the Packer players back, I would have thought?

 

[C_C]

Yes you are right my mistake; at his peak 77-81, but he really only played Aust without their Packer players during the 1978-79 series, the Windies in 1980 would have had the Packer players back, I would have thought?

Yes but they were lacking the packer players before 1980...when Botham raced to 100 wickets in 21 matches or so.

 

[Richard]

And ......

All youre demonstrating was that he had a decidedly worse test record than MacGill, a bowler, whom if I'm not mistaken, you dont rate at all

Nope, I'm demonstrating that he was a better bowler than MacGill for longer than MacGill could ever dream of being.

MacGill, this is, remember, who's rarely had more than 2 good games on the trot.

 

[archie mac]

Yes but they were lacking the packer players before 1980...when Botham raced to 100 wickets in 21 matches or so.

I read a bio of Botham, and I think he said he did not play the Windies until 1980

 

[Richard]

He didn't.

In fact he never played them during the period where he was any good without the captaincy.

 

[C_C]

I read a bio of Botham, and I think he said he did not play the Windies until 1980

Probably why Botham's bowling against the WI was the worst of the lot from the 4 allrounders of that period.

 

[social]

The fact that you list Patterson, Davis and Moseley (who played 2 Tests) who were all decidedly average and omit to mention Tony Gray, Ian Bishop and Winston Benjamin who were far, far, FAR better doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about your knowledge of West Indian seamers.

No-one, EVER, could make Ambrose, Bishop and Walsh look like schoolboys. You're insane if you think they could.

Urm, Tony Gray played the last of his test matches in 1986, so he should be added to the previous generation's list. Unfortunately, he suffered from back injuries and was never the same bowler after his debut series.

Winston Davis was a similar standard to Benjamin but much quicker

Ezra Moseley played 2 tests for WI at 33! He was effectively banned because of his involvement in the rebel tour to SA in the mid 80s. As I mentioned earlier, he was reputedly the quickest bowler in the world in the early 80s and also a bit of a head-case.