Saqlain Mushtaq, The most under-rated ODI bowler ever?

[rodzilla1010]

Is he a guy who was, statistically, fortunate enough to be injured at the right time thus never having the chance to come back as a "lesser" bowler as he may well have.

Don't think that sentence makes all that much sense, TBH, but hopefully my point can be understood. Writing sentences so early in the morning sucks.

Yeah he was just plain lucky to take 300 wickets at 21 runs per wicket and take it every 30th ball...you are right.

Same can be said about Don Bradman too.

He avg'd 99.95 in 52 tests

But Only 72 in his last 5. so may be an ordinary batsman as lucky enought to retire at the right time. If he had played another 52 test he might have had a sixtish average

 

[C_C]

Yeah he was just plain lucky to take 300 wickets at 21 runs per wicket and take it every 30th ball...you are right.

Same can be said about Don Bradman too.

He avg'd 99.95 in 52 tests

But Only 72 in his last 5. so may be an ordinary batsman as lucky enought to retire at the right time. If he had played another 52 test he might have had a sixtish average

So totally not what vic meant.

 

[vic_orthdox]

But Only 72 in his last 5. so may be an ordinary batsman as lucky enought to retire at the right time. If he had played another 52 test he might have had a sixtish average

He might've also been 80 by that stage.

So totally not what vic meant.

Yeah, I'm struggling to explain it properly admittedly.

Saqlain still did play easily enough matches to be regarded as in the top echelon of ODI bowlers. But when he continues to play in the domestic scene (both in England and Pakistan??) while still eligible for selection for Pakistan since his injuries, you wonder whether his figures have been padded a little when other players with a similar record would have returned to the side, somewhat largely due to reputation, straight away.

Talking hypothetically, it's a bit like if Waqar or Ian Bishop never came back from injury but continued to play in domestic cricket. You could talk about how good their international figures were, but there'd be a slight question mark hanging over their heads considering that they're not deemed good enough to make it back into their country's team. Much of which you can attribute to injury, obviously (and although I'm not all that familiar with Saqlain's story, I'm pretty sure that applies to him too).

 

[thierry henry]

I still don't *really* understand what happened to Saqlain. It just doesn't make any sense. A bowler with THAT record would surely have almost guaranteed himself a spot for life in the Pakistan ODI side, yet he was dumped while his record was still outstanding, never to return and rarely to be spoken of.

 

[Richard]

Murali is a better ODI bowler than Saqlain, that much should be apparent to most people.

But yes, with Saqlain's absence of late he does seem something of a forgotten man. A shame, because he was one hell of a ODI bowler, without any doubt, even if his average was a bit flattering due to being a death-bowler.

 

[thierry henry]

But other death bowlers don't have comparable averages. And Saqlain still has a good e/r.

 

[Richard]

Oh, quite, I'm not saying he wasn't a pretty darn good death-bowler (especially for a spinner) - was quite a sight to see him and Wasim bowling at the death of times.

But his average, like most bowlers who got a load of wickets at the death, does IMO make it look like he did a bit that he didn't. I never take too much notice of wickets at the death - they're an almost-inevitability. With Saqlain, unlike some, he took plenty of wickets at other times too.

 

[Bouncer]

My roommate used to say that Saqlain's average was heavily boosted by tail-end wickets. Thoughts?

He was the first spinner who started bowling regularly at death overs too...and once he got rid of a settle # 4 batting at 65 odd runs in 49th over of inning, then chances of opener coming to bat next ball are quite slim.

 

[silentstriker]

My roommate used to say that Saqlain's average was heavily boosted by tail-end wickets. Thoughts?

i wish there was a stat i could pull for that

But i can imply a stat which can assess his usefulness to the team, as an attacking bowler not as a tail-end wicket taker

He avgs 15 when Pakistan won and his strike rate of 24...

Basically when ever Saq struck Pak won. And moreover he was a spinner barely bowled at death to tail enders.

Did someone mention stats?

Saqlain Mushtaq wickets:

Top Order (1-3): 19.4%
Middle Order (4-7): 48.3%
Lower Order (8-11): 32.3%


Shane Warne wickets:

Top Order (1-3): 27.6%
Middle Order (4-7): 51.9%
Lower Order (8-11): 20.5%

Muttiah Muralitharan wickets:

Top Order (1-3): 26.2%
Middle Order (4-7): 49.8%
Lower Order (8-11): 24.1%

Basically, he had fewer top order wickets, about the same middle order wickets, and more tail ender wickets than the other two.

 

[rodzilla1010]

Did someone mention stats?

Saqlain Mushtaq wickets:

Top Order (1-3): 19.4%
Middle Order (4-7): 48.3%
Lower Order (8-11): 32.3%


Shane Warne wickets:

Top Order (1-3): 27.6%
Middle Order (4-7): 51.9%
Lower Order (8-11): 20.5%

Muttiah Muralitharan wickets:

Top Order (1-3): 26.2%
Middle Order (4-7): 49.8%
Lower Order (8-11): 24.1%

Basically, he had fewer top order wickets, about the same middle order wickets, and more tail ender wickets than the other two.

nice stat dude. Thanks

 

[social]

Interesting stats

Saqlain was one of the first bowlers to master the doosra and befuddled numerous players with that delivery, especially tail-enders.

Whilst injuries no doubt contributed to his decline (as did politics, I believe), there is also little doubt that cricketers around the world began to "pick" his variations thereby reducing his effectiveness.

There was also a theory that because of his concentration on the doosra, he lost the ability to bowl an effective off-spinner.

That being said, there was no doubt that he was, for a time, an absolute champ and it's a shame that his international career appears to have been cut short.

 

[C_C]

This is why stats are not the end-all-be-all : Saqlain has a lot more lower order wickets because when on song,he was better at beating the bat than Murali and Warne and thus could bowl prolificly in the death. So obviously he will have more lower order wickets if he doesnt just pack up by the 40th over.

Saqlain is no mystery- i've explained several times that Saqlain just 'lost it'.
Spinners tend to just croak and die all of a sudden - just like how Qadir, Bedi,Chandra, Prasanna,Laker etc. just ground to a halt all of a sudden. Plus Saqlain massively overused the doosra after he reinvented it to the point where his regular offbreak bowling began to suffer badly. Basically, he went from being a really good spinner to a spinner with a stupidly successful mystery ball who became overly reliant and one dimentional due to the stupid amount of success he got with his mystery ball. So by the time good batsmen finally figured out his mystery ball, he'd regressed significantly in all other skills. As a result, he went from boom to bust. His downfall was further compounded by the fact that Saqqi was never an extraordinary turner of the ball ala Murali/Warne. But before he began overusing the doosra, his loop and flight were far far superior to Warne's and shades even Murali today when on song. But he then got caught up in the whole 'he who turns more is the man' contest and started bowling totally flat. In the last test in Multan, he was bowling super flat and just trying to get as much spin as possible despite the fact that he'd have been better served by loop and flight on that pitch.

This is like what happened with Agarkar too, though at a much lesser extent : he came in rapidly, got figured out and was bust soon.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I remember someone mentioning how for a while people were picking the doosra because he ran in quicker to bowl it.

 

[rodzilla1010]

So we are in agreement when we say tht Saqlain is the best spinner ever to play ODI?

 

[adharcric]

Murali > Saqlain, barely.

 

[rodzilla1010]

Interesting stats

Saqlain was one of the first bowlers to master the doosra and befuddled numerous players with that delivery, especially tail-enders.

Whilst injuries no doubt contributed to his decline (as did politics, I believe), there is also little doubt that cricketers around the world began to "pick" his variations thereby reducing his effectiveness.

There was also a theory that because of his concentration on the doosra, he lost the ability to bowl an effective off-spinner.

That being said, there was no doubt that he was, for a time, an absolute champ and it's a shame that his international career appears to have been cut short.

Guys his performance, didn't dimisnh because he just lost the art but because he was suffering from a disease. It is noted tha his knees got so weak that he couldnt even stand in the slips for a complete session.
I feel really bad for the poor chap, one of the poster on another forum told me that he is trying very hard to ge his fitness back and he is getting better.
But that disease has take a toll on him.

But, i think in a span of 5 years he really gave spin a new dimension in ODI cricket. Bowling at death, getting breakthroughs and making offspin an art as exciting as leg spin is. He is not gifted as Murli but he is one of the smartest bowler i have seen.

May be arguing over meaningless titles like the best spiner is a waste of time. But i think Saqlain is a good example how being non-conterversial makes a person easy to forget. Warne and Murli have been hit by conterversies of drugs and chucking, therefore they got more media coverage and Cricketers like Saqlain just became footnotes despite having better records.

Not only on this forum but even the ODI XI made on cricinfo had no mention of Saqlain, even if he is not the best he deserevs a mention whenever we talk about the legends of cricket

 

[rodzilla1010]

Murali > Saqlain, barely.

will yu support it with something else or you are just implying your opinion?

average-saq better
strike rate- saq better
5 wkt hauls/ match- saq better
4 wkt hauls/ match-saq better


Against aus- saqlain avgs 23..murli avgs 29
Against Ind-saqlain avgs 24..murli 28

Saqlain avgs 20 at home and 23 away
Murli avgs 22 at home and 25 away

Saqlain avgs 15 when Pak wins
Murli avgs 19 when SL wins

please support your argument

 

[C_C]

Dude, i think your friend exgaggerated Saqlain's injury woes. He had a rough time with injuries in 2000-2002 but has been fit after it. He bowled a lot against India - he didnt look unfit at all. Its not his fitness but the fact that he declined a lot after turning into a one-trick pony.

 

[rodzilla1010]

Dude, i think your friend exgaggerated Saqlain's injury woes. He had a rough time with injuries in 2000-2002 but has been fit after it. He bowled a lot against India - he didnt look unfit at all. Its not his fitness but the fact that he declined a lot after turning into a one-trick pony.

I hope you dont mean that being out of form in the last 2 years of his career would nulify the first 6 years?

those 2 bad years are also included in his stats. And despite having such a poor run he is by far the best spinner in ODI. Its not even marginal.

Shane warne and Saq are comaprable and saqlain seems the better eaily but due to more # of matches comparing murli is harder...but the difference between the 2 offspinner is the same as comparing Walsh to Ambrose...

 

[C_C]

I hope you dont mean that being out of form in the last 2 years of his career would nulify the first 6 years?

No it wouldnt but one thing i look for in my great players is longetivity. Saqqi does not have that compared to Murali.

Shane warne and Saq are comaprable and saqlain seems the better eaily but due to more # of matches comparing murli is harder...but the difference between the 2 offspinner is the same as comparing Walsh to Ambrose...

The difference, is that Saqlain would get walloped today by most international batsmen. Warne's performance might start to flag as he gets older but all these blokes like Ambrose, Walsh,Warne, Murali etc. are/were capable of producing a superb performance even under decline. Saqlain was brilliant for a while, then got figured out like Botham and went to crap. And unsurprisingly, the injury angle keeps getting played yet again.
The simple fact is, Saqlain is no longer a spinner good enough to play international cricket unless he emigrated to bangladesh or zimbabwe.

Its not even marginal.

It very much is. In ODIs, economy rate starts to figure. I'd still pick Murali because Saqlain had the luxury of being supported by some of the best ODI bowlers ever and he didnt last half as long as Murali.